5/3/24 7:05PM Tigers @ Yankees

[1776]

5 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Another game with a stupid huge strike zone. Really ready for ABS.

Listening to several games in the evenings, I can’t recall a time when the broadcasters have been more outspoken about the inept umpiring at the plate. It is crazy right now.

[kdog]

 

[kdog]

5 minutes ago, holygoat said:

Tork's in his 3rd year and completely lost in all phases of the game. I fail to see how allowing him to continue to fail at this level helps build his confidence for the present or the future, and letting him figure it out in a low leverage atmosphere just might salvage his value going forward. The Detroit Tigers will still be here when he's found his game.

It shows to me how little they think of the options in Toledo. Hiura is there if a guy gets hurt IMO.

[Jim Cowan]

Meanwhile, Malloy keeps getting on base, Baddoo is hitting for power and running the bases.  Maybe we don't like their gloves or their arms, but at least one of those bats needs a callup.  FWIW Baddoo has been playing exclusively in CF.

[Dtrain72]

3 minutes ago, kdog said:

It shows to me how little they think of the options in Toledo. Hiura is there if a guy gets hurt IMO.

That may be true, but what if they send Tork down and he still sucks? They cant bring him back up in that case, which is bad for everyone...hot take, but I think Harris and AJ arent confident in Tork putting his game together in Toledo either.   Like it or not, he's gonna be up on Tigers until at least the all star break, Mendoza line and -0.7 WAR be damned.  1OA pick is ginna sink or swim up in the show.

[Dtrain72]

2 minutes ago, Jim Cowan said:

Meanwhile, Malloy keeps getting on base, Baddoo is hitting for power and running the bases.  Maybe we don't like their gloves or their arms, but at least one of those bats needs a callup.  FWIW Baddoo has been playing exclusively in CF.

Yeah, and with Torks WAR, half of the Mudhens roster would be just as good if not better...I mean, that's literally what WAR is.

[kdog]

I think the first step in a Tork demotion will be pinch hitting for him late in high leverage situations. That should probably start happening.

[chasfh]

31 minutes ago, 1776 said:

I would have too. I don’t get the logic in pitching to the guy. Double play was the only hope they had.

You don’t walk the guy in that situation because a standard double play doesn’t help you, or end the inning. You’d have to go home with the throw and that’s hard to manage if it’s not hit decently hard right to you. At that point you’re going for the strikeout. Then you issue the free pass to try for the double play to end the inning.

[chasfh]

1 hour ago, Sports_Freak said:

Tork at bat, bases loaded and one out. I think "this will be a good time for your first home run." He struck out.

Pitchers are so unconcerned with Tork that Statcast says he gets more four-seamers than any other pitch, and he does worse against that pitch than any other except the changeup.

[1776]

So, I think we’re not sure on how many outs there were at that point. With two men on at that point, wasn’t there already one out? I recalled that it was. Putting a guy on first then would have loaded the bases with one out. That would have provided a chance for a double play on a ball on the infield. I realize it would have to be turned cleanly but other than that, they were toast anyway at that point. 

[kdog]

7 walks...takes a special kind of crappy offense to only score one run haha.

[1776]

6 minutes ago, 1776 said:

So, I think we’re not sure on how many outs there were at that point. With two men on at that point, wasn’t there already one out? I recalled that it was. Putting a guy on first then would have loaded the bases with one out. That would have provided a chance for a double play on a ball on the infield. I realize it would have to be turned cleanly but other than that, they were toast anyway at that point. 

So I check the boxscore and there were no outs. My mistake. 

[Motor City Sonics]

Being 18-14 should feel better, but this team should probably be 22-10 right now.     How many times is Olson going to pitch this well and get nothing to show for it. 

 

Tork has no business being here.   Don't care if he's a 1-1, he's lost and he can't even hit fastballs.    

[Jim Cowan]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

You don’t walk the guy in that situation because a standard double play doesn’t help you, or end the inning. You’d have to go home with the throw and that’s hard to manage if it’s not hit decently hard right to you. At that point you’re going for the strikeout. Then you issue the free pass to try for the double play to end the inning.

Disagree, set up the force at home right away.  Why wait for one batter? If you don't load them up, and it's not hit decently hard right to you, the guy scores standing up.  I don't want to overthink these situations,  they are straightforward...set up the force.  The strikeout would be ideal, sure, but you can't rely on it.  Take the next best thing, set up the force.

[Motor City Sonics]

Is Spencer Torkelson the worst starting player in MLB right now? 

[gehringer_2]

3 minutes ago, Jim Cowan said:

Disagree, set up the force at home right away.

Yeah - this used to be SOP, but it's not in Hinch's playbook. Apparently out of fashion, but the force at home is sooo much easier for a catcher than a tag play. I wonder how much the difficulty of the latter leaks into thinking about playing for the former. And of course turning the 5/2/3  DP is not beyond the defensive talents of either of the Tiger catchers. 

 

Edited May 4 by gehringer_2

[SoCalTiger]

Sometimes it seems Hinch just gets a bit to cute. Sometime the obvious is the best.

[Jim Cowan]

1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said:

Yeah - this used to be SOP, but it's not in Hinch's playbook. Apparently out of fashion, but the force at home is sooo much easier for a catcher than a tag play. I wonder how much the difficulty of the latter leaks into thinking about playing for the former. And of course turning the 5/2/3  DP is not beyond the defensive talents of either of the Tiger catchers. 

 

I think it's just a case of Hinch being the smartest guy in the room.  Loading them up is such a no-brainer.  His in-game tactics dont do much harm, or much good, and his decision there did not affect the outcome of the came.  So his action was pretty weird but no harm done.

[1776]

6 hours ago, SoCalTiger said:

Sometimes it seems Hinch just gets a bit to cute. Sometime the obvious is the best.

Hinch is the brightest manager in MLB right now. If you don’t believe me, ask him. 

[casimir]

9 hours ago, holygoat said:

Too many guaranteed outs in this lineup. At a minimum, Tork needs to be in Toledo, because he's worthless right now. Hinch not sending him down to protect his confidence doesn't seem to be helping his confidence. Finding his swing and raking at AAA just might. This is a game they absolutely should've won but their offense sucks so bad.

My only retort here is that Harris may have some influence on keeping Torkelson in Detroit.

I've been waffling on sending him down, but its gotten more one sided lately.  And the Tigers are probably getting to that point, too.  They could move Canha to 1B and recall Baddoo.  Or they could time it with Urshela's return, with Canha to 1B and Vierling playing more OF.

I kind of wonder if they might be looking at this road trip as a bit of a marker in the sand.  These are some high stakes games in order to keep up in the playoff chase.  Its a tough ask to get through the Yankee lineup unscathed.  Its obvious that the offense needs something right now.

[casimir]

7 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

Yeah - this used to be SOP, but it's not in Hinch's playbook. Apparently out of fashion, but the force at home is sooo much easier for a catcher than a tag play. I wonder how much the difficulty of the latter leaks into thinking about playing for the former. And of course turning the 5/2/3  DP is not beyond the defensive talents of either of the Tiger catchers. 

 

Has the SOP changed given how much more the strikeout plays in the current era?

I'd have loaded them up and set up the force at home.  But I'm a hack sitting on a recliner not privy to the data and feel of the dugout.  Plus I was watching on delay, so even if I would have called in my suggestion, it'd have been too late.

[casimir]

6 hours ago, SoCalTiger said:

Sometimes it seems Hinch just gets a bit to cute. Sometime the obvious is the best.

 

6 hours ago, Jim Cowan said:

I think it's just a case of Hinch being the smartest guy in the room.  Loading them up is such a no-brainer.  His in-game tactics dont do much harm, or much good, and his decision there did not affect the outcome of the came.  So his action was pretty weird but no harm done.

Did he concede defeat at that point and decide to conserve pitch counts for another day?  No manager would admit to it.  I'm sure at that point most of us would have wondered how they escaped allowing only one run to get into extra innings.  What was run expectancy at that point?  Maybe that's what went into the decision to not set up a force everywhere.

Here is the problem.  None out, runners at 2nd and 3rd, bottom of the 9th, tie game.  If you're pitching to the Tigers, you can probably figure out a way to get out of that inning and on to the next.  But it was the Tigers pitching to a team with a legitimate offense.

[casimir]

And before this play gets forgotten, I tip my hat to Verdugo.  He placed that bunt perfectly against a defense that was ignoring it.  He read that situation perfectly and dropped the ball in a pretty good spot to take advantage of it.

[Jim Cowan]

26 minutes ago, casimir said:

And before this play gets forgotten, I tip my hat to Verdugo.  He placed that bunt perfectly against a defense that was ignoring it.  He read that situation perfectly and dropped the ball in a pretty good spot to take advantage of it.

That's a good point and according to GameDay that wasn't a very buntable pitch, high and outside.

[mtutiger]

42 minutes ago, casimir said:

My only retort here is that Harris may have some influence on keeping Torkelson in Detroit.

I've been waffling on sending him down, but its gotten more one sided lately.  And the Tigers are probably getting to that point, too.  They could move Canha to 1B and recall Baddoo.  Or they could time it with Urshela's return, with Canha to 1B and Vierling playing more OF.

I kind of wonder if they might be looking at this road trip as a bit of a marker in the sand.  These are some high stakes games in order to keep up in the playoff chase.  Its a tough ask to get through the Yankee lineup unscathed.  Its obvious that the offense needs something right now.

Yeah, I think he's going to have to do something fairly quickly or risk being out of the starting lineup (in pinch hitting mode as kdog has suggested) or sent down. We're not there yet, AJ and Scott probably aren't there yet, but it's getting closer IMO.

In general though, at least on the SM, it seems to have reignited the debate about whether they should have brought Chapman in or whoever (who, btw, only has a 0.642 OPS at the moment), but the fact remains that the long term success of this team rests on these younger players. Even beyond Spencer Torkelson, Colt Keith and Parker Meadows.... all of them did what they needed to do in Toledo, sending them down may help for a reset but, in terms of gaining experience, there's nothing to be gained by that. And at some point, you have to give players runway to sink or swim. You have to be able to find out who these guys are and whether they fit into the long term plans.

 

In the larger context of this being a much improved team over previous seasons, it's not ideal. But its the reality.... and it would have been the reality regardless of whether they signed a Matt Chapman or JD Martinez or whoever.