LOCKOUT '22: When will we see baseball again?

[buddha]

8 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

I don't really care as most of the issues don't affect me as a fan.  I just favor the players over the owners.  The players are why I watch the game.  

i dont know what a win would look like either.  its just various degrees of "lose".  i suppose not having a hard salary cap is still considered a win?

its taken a long time, but a lot of teams have finally figured out how to manipulate the system to their advantage.  you keep the guys in the minors until theyre ready to cook, then you get them in a salary controlled environment for six years at undermarket wages, then you flip them for more talent on their fifth year (or let them walk after their 6th).

no need to sign overpriced talent.  its working for a lot of teams and the players hate it and are trying to change it now.

the real shame is that the focus on money keeps them from focusing on state of play issues that are having a real effect on our enjoyment of the games.

[RedRamage]

On 2/22/2022 at 6:21 PM, Motor City Sonics said:

I was in my room and I was just staring at my computer thinking about everything but then again , I was thinking about nothing and Rob Manfred came in and I didn't even know he was there and he called my name and I didn't hear and then he started screaming "Mark!, Mark!" and I go "What's the matter?" and he goes "What's that matter with you" and I go "There's nothing wrong, Rob".  He goes "Don't tell me that, you're on drugs"  I go "No Rob, I'm not on drugs, I'm just thinking, you know?  Why don't you get me some baseball?" and he goes "NO! YOU'RE NOT THINKING, YOU'RE ON DRUGS! Normal people don't act that way" and I go "Rob, just get me some baseball please, all I want is some baseball and he wouldn't give it to me, All I wanted was baseball, just some baseball and He won't give it to me, Just some baseball. 

This Rob guy sounds like a douche.

[HeyAbbott]

This nothing more than a pissing contest right now. The difference aren't materially different if what is being asked for is being properly reported in the media. Time to clean up the fishing gear for me. There won't be any baseball until July 1, at the earliest.

[oblong]

They seem to be pretty far apart on the CBT... my understanding is the owners are actually offering a worse deal in that regard than what expired, once you factor in the penalties.

If the owners have learned their lesson and are being smarter... then why do they need it?    I always viewed the NBA salary cap as not a deterrent for out of control spending but to ensure the players a certain % of revenue.  

Make the penalities voluntary.  If the owners are so noble and good to each other they should pay it.  18 MLB owners are asking the players to make sacrifices because those 18 owners don't trust 6 other owners.

The owners can do this without colluding.  

[Longgone]

19 minutes ago, oblong said:

They seem to be pretty far apart on the CBT... my understanding is the owners are actually offering a worse deal in that regard than what expired, once you factor in the penalties.

If the owners have learned their lesson and are being smarter... then why do they need it?    I always viewed the NBA salary cap as not a deterrent for out of control spending but to ensure the players a certain % of revenue.  

Make the penalities voluntary.  If the owners are so noble and good to each other they should pay it.  18 MLB owners are asking the players to make sacrifices because those 18 owners don't trust 6 other owners.

The owners can do this without colluding.  

You can't call something legally negotiated collusion, it's more like anti monopoly/ competitive balance measures, which i do believe are necessary. On the other hand, no one is negotiating their existence, just how hard and how high the limits, which should be resolvable.

Edited February 24, 2022 by Longgone

[oblong]

4 minutes ago, Longgone said:

You can't call something legally negotiated collusion, it's more like anti monopoly/ competitive balance measures, which i do believe are necessary. On the other hand, no one is negotiating their existence, just how hard and how high the limits, which should be resolved.

When I say collusion I'm referring to it not being in the agreement but then they do it among themselves, like was done in the 80's.  They don't have to go that far.  Just be smart as it's claimed they have become.  A smart team doesn't need a CBT to restrain their spending. 

[Longgone]

3 minutes ago, oblong said:

When I say collusion I'm referring to it not being in the agreement but then they do it among themselves, like was done in the 80's.  They don't have to go that far.  Just be smart as it's claimed they have become.  A smart team doesn't need a CBT to restrain their spending. 

When some teams have ten times the resources, or more, some mechanism is required.

[Motor City Sonics]

2 hours ago, RedRamage said:

This Rob guy sounds like a douche.

Oh, he is and he's the spokesman for 30 douches including one local douche.  

How's that District Detroit coming along, local douche?  

[SoCalTiger]

Too bad us fans cant have an impact like "finalize by March 1 or cancel the whole season". See ya in 23..maybe.

[chasfh]

2 hours ago, oblong said:

When I say collusion I'm referring to it not being in the agreement but then they do it among themselves, like was done in the 80's.  They don't have to go that far.  Just be smart as it's claimed they have become.  A smart team doesn't need a CBT to restrain their spending. 

The concern is that outlier teams that spend outsized amounts of money on their roster will force payrolls up for everyone. They feel it's better to keep everyone constrained.

[oblong]

29 minutes ago, chasfh said:

The concern is that outlier teams that spend outsized amounts of money on their roster will force payrolls up for everyone. They feel it's better to keep everyone constrained.

I know.... I just can't get past the "We need you guys to help us control ourselves"

 

[CMRivdogs]

i've gotten to the point where college baseball is starting to look attractive. Reserved seats for W&M $10. 

It's a bit like going to Spring Training...

[chasfh]

45 minutes ago, oblong said:

I know.... I just can't get past the "We need you guys to help us control ourselves"

 

"Stop me before I spend again!"

[Tiger337]

3 hours ago, Longgone said:

When some teams have ten times the resources, or more, some mechanism is required.

14 teams are going to be in the playoffs.  So, even if a few teams have more resources than all the other teams, there are still plenty of opportunities for poorer teams to win.  nothing is required.  The owners just want to keep salaries as low as possible.  

[Longgone]

15 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

14 teams are going to be in the playoffs.  So, even if a few teams have more resources than all the other teams, there are still plenty of opportunities for poorer teams to win.  nothing is required.  The owners just want to keep salaries as low as possible.  

There would never be anything even remotely competitive when a few teams can just grossly outspend their rivals, not just for the best players, but scouts, infrastructure, etc. Baseball is not like other sports, where most revenues are shared, there is a huge disparity in resources which is attempted to be addressed with revenue sharing, the draft and the CBT. As long as this disparity exists, there needs to be some mechanisms like this. Does it inhibit salaries, sure, but it keeps them at a level where every team has a chance to be competitive, not just a few.

[Tiger337]

Just now, Longgone said:

There would never be anything even remotely competitive when a few teams can just grossly outspend their rivals, not just for the best players, but scouts, infrastructure, etc. Baseball is not like other sports, where most revenues are shared, there is a huge disparity in resources which is attempted to be addressed with revenue sharing, the draft and the CBT. As long as this disparity exists, there needs to be some mechanisms like this. Does it inhibit salaries, sure, but it keeps them at a level where every team has a chance to be competitive, not just a few.

When 14 teams make the playoffs, everybody has a chance to be competitive regardless.  If you can't be competitive with that, then you should sell your team.  

[Longgone]

3 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

When 14 teams make the playoffs, everybody has a chance to be competitive regardless.  If you can't be competitive with that, then you should sell your team.  

You've missed the point entirely. There would be a league of haves and have nots, who wants that? Having a shot at the playoffs would in no way address the resource disparity, it's a non sequitur.

[oblong]

Atlanta

Dodgers

Nationals

Red Sox

Astros

Cubs

Royals

Giants

Red Sox

Giants

Cardinals

Giants

Yankees

Phillies

Red Sox

 

The last 15 years produced 11 different orgs as champs, with the Red Sox and noted overs penders San Francisco Giants making up the other 4  years as 3 time champs.  6 other teams made the WS that never won a WS during that time.   6 additional teams made their LCS without advancing to the WS. 

I think there's competitive balance.  It takes a special kind of stupid and ineptness to not have a shot at the playoffs every couple of years and CBT's won't fix that.  

[Longgone]

7 minutes ago, oblong said:

Atlanta

Dodgers

Nationals

Red Sox

Astros

Cubs

Royals

Giants

Red Sox

Giants

Cardinals

Giants

Yankees

Phillies

Red Sox

 

The last 15 years produced 11 different orgs as champs, with the Red Sox and noted overs penders San Francisco Giants making up the other 4  years as 3 time champs.  6 other teams made the WS that never won a WS during that time.   6 additional teams made their LCS without advancing to the WS. 

I think there's competitive balance.  It takes a special kind of stupid and ineptness to not have a shot at the playoffs every couple of years and CBT's won't fix that.  

And the CBT and revenue sharing have been in place, so your point?

[Longgone]

Up until the pandemic years, players share of revenues stayed remarkably close to 50%. Players salaries have fallen the last few years, but so have revenues with the shortened season and limited attendance. I believe both sides would/should be happy to maintain it at that level, but predictably, have widely different views on the impact of various changes. 

[oblong]

1 hour ago, Longgone said:

And the CBT and revenue sharing have been in place, so your point?

The owners proposal is worse than status quo. 

[Tiger337]

There was lots of competitive balance in the 70s and 80s without any CBT.  I just don't see that it matters now with so many teams in the playoffs. As much as I hate the set up, the idea is to make the playoffs and try to win the championship.  The expaned playoffs gives everybody a chance regardless of whether a few teams spend more money than all the others.    

[Longgone]

15 minutes ago, oblong said:

The owners proposal is worse than status quo. 

Yes, it is. And the player's proposal is much worse than the status quo, and no ones giving an inch.

[RandyMarsh]

The problem is that it's not just the teams with more resources spending more on payroll it's how they can afford to spend in all departments. There's a reason that the Dodgers despite graduating a lot of young talent in recent years, dumping top prospects at the deadline for a top 3 starter in Scherzer and a top 10 overall player in Turner and picking at the end of the 1st round for 10 years still have arguably the best system or very least top 3 in baseball and that's because they can put so much more resources in things like scouting and analytics. 

Yeah there has been alot of parity in baseball but I think that's just due to the volatility of the game in general and not because of how it is currently constructed. 

Edited February 24, 2022 by RandyMarsh

[Longgone]

19 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

There was lots of competitive balance in the 70s and 80s without any CBT.  I just don't see that it matters now with so many teams in the playoffs. As much as I hate the set up, the idea is to make the playoffs and try to win the championship.  The expaned playoffs gives everybody a chance regardless of whether a few teams spend more money than all the others.    

There is no correlation between a huge disparity in competitive resources, and the number of teams making the playoffs. More teams making the playoffs, and that hasn't even been agreed upon, would not address any competitive resource imbalance. A few teams could still outbid and outspend everyone else for talent.