LOCKOUT '22: When will we see baseball again?

[casimir]

11 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

yup. Sort of a conflict between it being in the interest of MiLB players that it be easy to bring up minor leaguers and easy to cut older players at the end of their run, while it's the opposite for the current players, who want it to be costly to bring up minor leaguers and hard to cut or reduce the salaries of older players.

I think there's a way to unionize the minor leaguers such that they can get more reasonable pay & benefits.  And if MLB is taking over more of the direction of MiLB, it seems like the MLBPA might have more interest in how its minor leaguers are handled.

[IdahoBert]

Regarding Dan Dickerson, I haven’t noticed egregious mispronunciations exceeding common Anglicizations — like saying Paris instead of PEAR~d-d-d-d-eeeee so maybe I’m not paying close enough attention — but I remember Vin Scully mispronouncing Anibal Sanchez as Annabelle when the Tigers were playing the Dodgers and it really grated on me. But I think Vin made up for it by telling an interesting anecdote about Anibal’s personal life that I found unusually fascinating although I can’t remember it now. 

[RandyMarsh]

How was Anibal's name supposed to be announced? I've heard it said like you described Scully, Ive heard it said like Hannibal Lecter without the H, Ive heard Uh-knee-ball and probably a couple others but I never got an official pronunciation.

[IdahoBert]

5 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

How was Anibal's name supposed to be announced? I've heard it said like you described Scully, Ive heard it said like Hannibal Lecter without the H, Ive heard Uh-knee-ball and probably a couple others but I never got an official pronunciation.

AH-knee-BALL, at least that’s what Dan says and I’m sticking with it. When you pronounce it “Annabelle” you should be playing a banjo at a hoedown. 

[RandyMarsh]

https://theathletic.com/3138898/2022/02/21/what-would-happen-if-baseball-killed-the-shift?source=user-shared-article

Behind a paywall but interesting article about the shift. A crazy number I'll share from the article is in 2013 there were 6882 shifts over the season, last year there were over 59,000. Just insane how much it has gone up in less than 10 years. 

Joey Gallo had a good quote in there,  to paraphrase it "How am I supposed to get a double or triple when there are 6 guys in the outfield?" He kinda has a point,  it's no wonder guys swing for the fences nowadays.

Edited February 21, 2022 by RandyMarsh

[RedRamage]

I personally don't mind the shift.  I'm not going to be super upset if outlaw it, but imho if the defense is shifting on you it's because you aren't as good a hitter as someone the defense doesn't shift on.  You're not using the whole field.  That's on you as a hitter.  No like them shifting?  Practice hitting the other way.

On a side note: How would the rule look?  You'd have to get pretty specific with language... something like: "A defense must have two infielders and at least one outfielder on each side of a line drawn from home plate thru 2nd base to the outfield."

But then you need to specify a minimum depth that outfields can play... I mean if I was shifting to the first base side I'd just move my "centerfielder" up close to the infield, and shift my "thirdbaseman" to the outfield.  The left fielder plays just to the left of the centerline. Now I've satisfied the rule and still get my shift.  I mean you should end up seeing a line of chalk through the outfield designating how far back the outfielders have to play.

 

[gehringer_2]

1 minute ago, RedRamage said:

I personally don't mind the shift.  I'm not going to be super upset if outlaw it, but imho if the defense is shifting on you it's because you aren't as good a hitter as someone the defense doesn't shift on.  You're not using the whole field.  That's on you as a hitter.  No like them shifting?  Practice hitting the other way.

On a side note: How would the rule look?  You'd have to get pretty specific with language... something like: "A defense must have two infielders and at least one outfielder on each side of a line drawn from home plate thru 2nd base to the outfield."

But then you need to specify a minimum depth that outfields can play... I mean if I was shifting to the first base side I'd just move my "centerfielder" up close to the infield, and shift my "thirdbaseman" to the outfield.  The left fielder plays just to the left of the centerline. Now I've satisfied the rule and still get my shift.  I mean you should end up seeing a line of chalk through the outfield designating how far back the outfielders have to play.

 

100%
don’t mess with the rules because hitters refuse to learn to hit to the opposite field. What’s next? Ban the slider because guys can’t hit it? It would be exactly the same stupid logic. 

[CMRivdogs]

Forget the pitcher, just give these wussies a tee...

[RandyMarsh]

There's illegal defenses in other sportsso I have no problem if they did it in baseball. It can be as simple as you have to have atleast 3 guys on each side of the diamond. 

"The hit it where they ain't" approach is fine in theory but not easy to do unless you're Ted Williams or Tony Gwynn. 

Edited February 21, 2022 by RandyMarsh

[oblong]

Guys load up with body armor and hover over the plate and demand to be able to hit the ball wherever they want for a hit?  Batters want to retain their competitive advantage that suits them while making the defense give up their competitive advantage derived from education?

Sorry, not buying it.  Defensive positioning evolved over time as teams got smarter about where the ball was most likely to be hit.  This is just that.

"Sorry, you have to keep the lane clear so that Lebron can dunk..."

The Wings did the left wing lock in the 90's and it frustrated the other teams.... so they adapted and beat it.   That's how sports works.

 

[RandyMarsh]

Its not so much about what is fair its about what is best for the game. Most agree that there needs to be more balls in play and short if deadening the ball which it seems the league refuses to do the next option would be to make it easier for balls in play to be hits.

Perhaps with more groundball singles or bloop hits that we saw pre shift we would see less of guys feeling the need to swing for the fences. And for those that say just go the opposite way and take the single,  again that is easy in theory but extremely difficult in practice cause the pitchers pitch to the shift. They're not giving you pitches that you can take the other way with any sorta ease.

[Jim Cowan]

Deaden the ball of course, back to 1985, but that twerp Manfred won't ever do it.  So, failing that, keep shifting until guys learn to go the other way.  Or, when the third baseman plays short against a lefthanded batter, drop a bunt down.  That is a skill that can be developed in a relatively short period of time.

[SoCalTiger]

I would like to see the shift toned down by requiring 4 infielders on the dirt. Shifting in the infielder is fine but the softball player in shallow right field I don't care for . A line drive to shallow right should be a hit and the game needs base runners. 

[chasfh]

21 hours ago, oblong said:

When it comes to “sides” I agree with the players. But I too am fed up with the echo chamber in some of the “media”. This isn’t a social Justice issue. There’s no moral imperative here. It’s business.  I want to watch baseball and I don’t care who wins or loses as long as I get to do that. 

This is where I was coming down in my post here: sure, I would like to see the players get a good deal because the money in baseball has increased dramatically and overall player comp has actually decreased, and I think that is wholly unfair to the guys who are the real reason so many of us shovel so much money into the game's pockets.

But I also want to see baseball being played, and I'm not wired in to the money in any way, so really, how much does it matter in the end which side wins as long as the games get played? I would feel better about it if the players got a fair deal with the new CBA, but really, bottom line, just give me the baseball already.

Edited February 21, 2022 by chasfh

[chasfh]

3 hours ago, RandyMarsh said:

https://theathletic.com/3138898/2022/02/21/what-would-happen-if-baseball-killed-the-shift?source=user-shared-article

Behind a paywall but interesting article about the shift. A crazy number I'll share from the article is in 2013 there were 6882 shifts over the season, last year there were over 59,000. Just insane how much it has gone up in less than 10 years. 

Joey Gallo had a good quote in there,  to paraphrase it "How am I supposed to get a double or triple when there are 6 guys in the outfield?" He kinda has a point,  it's no wonder guys swing for the fences nowadays.

There's kind of a chicken-egg thing here: is the shift used because everyone is pulling for the fences so they're playing where the ball is going anyway, or is everyone pulling for the fences because hitters feel they have to in order to hit it over the shift? I think the shift started in response to the once-new pull-happy way of hitting, but I also think it has evolved to feeding off each other in that chicken-egg way.

[John_Brian_K]

4 minutes ago, chasfh said:

This is where I was coming down in my post here: sure, I would like to see the players get a good deal because the money in baseball has increased dramatically and overall player comp has actually decreased, and I think that is wholly unfair to the guys who are the real reason so many of us shovel so much money into the game's pockets.

But I also want to see baseball being played, and I'm not wired in to the money in any way, so really, how much does it matter in the end which side wins as long as the games get played? I would feel better about it if the players got a fair deal with the new CBA, but really, bottom line, just give me the baseball already.

Pretty close how I come out on it.  I do not care about the money part of it really.  I tend to side with owners, because I know how hard it is to own a business and have the help think you are a millionaire...it is different with them of course they ARE billionaires, but the players are millionaires...so just give me baseball.  I do not want to miss any this year.

[Tigeraholic1]

 

 

[chasfh]

1 hour ago, Jim Cowan said:

Deaden the ball of course, back to 1985, but that twerp Manfred won't ever do it.  So, failing that, keep shifting until guys learn to go the other way.  Or, when the third baseman plays short against a lefthanded batter, drop a bunt down.  That is a skill that can be developed in a relatively short period of time.

That sounds good on its face, but the shift has been happening for going on a decade now, and players haven't done this yet. I think it's worth asking why, or offering up hypotheses for it.

I think it's because the ball is so juiced that players won't change their pulling ways. Hitting home runs is where the money is. It's the single most highlighted play on all the recap shows during the season. And who doesn't want the money? So players are going to try to jack bombs so they can get paid. And as long as just about any major league hitter can lift a juiced ball into the outfield stands, why not keep trying?

Tommy La Stella is a good example of this. He was a banjo-hitting utility man who hit ten homers in his first 828 at bats across five seasons. All of a sudden he goes to Anaheim in 2019 and cranks 16 bombs in 292 at bats before getting hurt. Then he jacks five more in 196 at bats during the COVID season. His pay went from $1,350,000 in 2019, to a pro-ration of $3,250,000 in 2020, and then to a 3 year/$18.75MM deal from the Giants for his age 32-34 seasons. No way he gets that last deal at that advanced age until he hit all those homers in Anaheim. He'd probably be slinking into Arizona or Florida with a minor-league invite going into this, his age 33 season, especially since he turned back into a La Stella last year with a .250/.308/.405 slash line and a 92 OPS+.

If even banjo-hitting down-the-order Tommy La Stella can jack bombs with this baseball, and then get good and paid for doing so, then what's the incentive for him, or any other player, to spray the ball all around the field instead of trying to hit the ball over the shift and out of the park?

[HeyAbbott]

22 hours ago, oblong said:

When it comes to “sides” I agree with the players. But I too am fed up with the echo chamber in some of the “media”. This isn’t a social Justice issue. There’s no moral imperative here. It’s business.  I want to watch baseball and I don’t care who wins or loses as long as I get to do that. 

When I look at the differences between the two sides, I side with the players. I really think that the owners don't really want to play until mid May at the very earliest, as the marginal revenue for most clubs in April and May probably does not matter. I just hope the expand women's beach vollyebal when regular season games are canceled.

[HeyAbbott]

Shift? In the dead ball era, they were employed regularly. Shifts don't work on hitters that use the entire field. I wonder what Orlando Cepeda in his prime would have done against shifts.

[RedRamage]

19 minutes ago, HeyAbbott said:

When I look at the differences between the two sides, I side with the players. I really think that the owners don't really want to play until mid May at the very earliest, as the marginal revenue for most clubs in April and May probably does not matter. I just hope the expand women's beach vollyebal when regular season games are canceled.

Heck, if they don't start until mid-May we'll all be watching the USFL and baseball will be far from our minds... right?

[Tenacious D]

12 minutes ago, RedRamage said:

Heck, if they don't start until mid-May we'll all be watching the USFL and baseball will be far from our minds... right?

Really hope Bobby Hebert will be the QB again.

As for other options, would/could the Tigers schedule a few Mud Hens games at Comerica?  Also wonder if Bally Sports would televise any of the Hens games?  With the excitement around Greene and Tork, I suspect they could get some viewers.

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

I think it's because the ball is so juiced that players won't change their pulling ways.

yes, course exactly this. The hitters already have the jacked up ball that is making it advantageous net offense wise for them to pull everything *despite* the shift, then people moan and groan that the balls that don't make it over fence aren't going for singles too. Screw that.

Edited February 21, 2022 by gehringer_2

[Motor City Sonics]

5 hours ago, Tenacious D said:

Really hope Bobby Hebert will be the QB again.

As for other options, would/could the Tigers schedule a few Mud Hens games at Comerica?  Also wonder if Bally Sports would televise any of the Hens games?  With the excitement around Greene and Tork, I suspect they could get some viewers.

Jordan Ta'amu is going to make you all forget about Bobby Hebert.   

[Jim Cowan]

9 hours ago, HeyAbbott said:

Shift? In the dead ball era, they were employed regularly. Shifts don't work on hitters that use the entire field. I wonder what Orlando Cepeda in his prime would have done against shifts.

Willie McCovey was the only guy to see a shift in Cepeda's prime.