Vikings at Lions

[Sports_Freak]

Just now, Motown Bombers said:

Why do you come here and complain if the Lions make you so miserable? Legit question. 

They make me miserable because they are so bad, the worst run franchise in ALL of sports. So complaining is just pointing out mistake after mistake, year after year, decade after.....you get the idea.

[Sports_Freak]

Just now, Sports_Freak said:

They make me miserable because they are so bad, the worst run franchise in ALL of sports. So complaining is just pointing out mistake after mistake, year after year, decade after.....you get the idea.

But nice deflection. You never did answer why you defend them every week. And every year.

[Sports_Freak]

Hee-hee...

 

[gehringer_2]

at any given point a football game can evolve down a hundred different possible scenarios. Almost any decision can be good or bad in some number of those futures. Of course only one outcome happens, but which will is never more than a guess. There may be more or less statistical support for some choices but there is never any guarantee the particular game is going to take the 'average' path and validate the best 'average' answer. Campbell took a chance his team could do something if they got the ball back. It was a bet that ended up paying off even if it didn't have the best odds. I'm not going to fry him for that.

 how he uses his QB?  That is a different matter. Depending on what is clearly the least reliable cog in your offense when you need a foot on 4th down  - *that* makes no sense. My biggest beef with Campbell is that he seems committed to the idea that Goff can play at a higher level than he has shown any inclination to do since he's been here.

[Motor City Sonics]

2 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

at any given point a football game can evolve down a hundred different possible scenarios. Almost any decision can be good or bad in some number of those futures.

I believe that is Hugh Everett's Many Worlds theory.    Somewhere, in a universe we have no access to, the Lions are 12-0. 

[gehringer_2]

7 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said:

I believe that is Hugh Everett's Many Worlds theory.    Somewhere, in a universe we have no access to, the Lions are 12-0. 

If you want some fun around this in literary form: "Labyrinths" a collection of short stories by Jorge Luis Borges. Borges was probably more read by other writers than the public. Umberto Eco named his antagonist librarian in "The Name of the Rose" after Borges.

[sagnam]

1 hour ago, Motor City Sonics said:

I believe that is Hugh Everett's Many Worlds theory.    Somewhere, in a universe we have no access to, the Lions are 12-0. 

That’s no less shocking than us living in the universe where Campbell told Goff to throw a pick on one drive and fumble on the next. I think that 12-0 universe is awesome but this one is certainly more interesting.

[lordstanley]

 

[Motown Bombers]

I'm not sure I want to live in the universe where a coach makes a decision many other coaches makes, it works, the team wins, and yet it's still the wrong decision and no one can give a reasoned answer why. 

[Motor City Sonics]

The reason the Lions won that game was Mike Zimmer made some baffling decisions in the first half of the game.   If they didn't have a Thursday game, he'd probably be fired today. 

[Motown Bombers]

We are at the point in the program where nothing Campbell does will matter. All wins from here on out are because of what the other team did to lose. I expected it to take longer than 12 games to reach this point. 

[gehringer_2]

25 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

All wins from here on out

well, let's not get too far ahead of ourselves.

 

Edited December 6, 2021 by gehringer_2

[Motor City Sonics]

This is Spiderman Allen and I have a message for everyone in the NFL. 

 

 

[Motor City Sonics]

Dexter Bussey

Horace King

See Billy Run

Couldn't stop him with a gun 

[djhutch]

I'm not the type to call out anybody else for their opinions.  To each his own, but I don't understand the vitriol toward Campbell. There's a huge difference between him & Patrica - he has this team. They love him. Goff ran right over to him .. Did you see the locker room come around him?  Never did that over the last 3 seasons.  I get that he's made some bad moves.  I'm not saying any different, but as a leader his relentlessly moving forward is exactly what this organization needs.  After the first 5 losses, I figured this season was over - so let's let him learn everything he can learn.  You do that by doing - making mistakes - & then learning.  I think yesterday is an example of learning.  He could have punted the ball - I probably would have - but after giving the ball back how many times this year, only to have teams chew up 4-8 minutes of clock, I get the desire to go.  Yes the call didn't work - but it gave his team a chance.  This time it worked.

I personally think he took over play calling for only one reason - to get into the ear of Jared Goff. Sean McVay ridiculed & pummeled Goff on the field & off - Dan Campbell is trying to rebuild his confidence.  I don't think it has anything to do with Anthony Lynn's ability as a play caller - it's all about lifting up Goff's confidence.  Like many of you I have my doubts Goff's ability as a QB - his coach may have those same doubts, which is why he wants to be the voice in his ear.  I think we will see Campbell grow as a coach as his players get better in the coming years & there's more talent around him.

Edited December 6, 2021 by djhutch

[Motown Bombers]

 

[gehringer_2]

32 minutes ago, djhutch said:

I personally think he took over play calling for only one reason - to get into the ear of Jared Goff.

This is a good counterpoint to my earlier compliant that Campbell expects too much of Goff. It's true Campbell is more understandable in a context where you think that he believes he has build to build a culture where it's understood that execution is both expected and possible before he will ever get that execution.

 

Edited December 6, 2021 by gehringer_2

[NYLion]

19 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

 

Good Lord, Jared hit the lottery with that one. Kind of nice to get paid an enormous sum of money to provide mediocre QB play and come home to THAT.

[RedRamage]

From Vikings reddit:

[John_Brian_K]

I missed the game completely, but after watching the last couple plays...how was the thiird down throw not PI?

[TP_Fan]

9 hours ago, Motown Bombers said:

I'm not sure I want to live in the universe where a coach makes a decision many other coaches makes, it works, the team wins, and yet it's still the wrong decision and no one can give a reasoned answer why. 

Let’s not pretend there wasn’t a reason given.  The reason is that by Campbell calling the timeout he increased the odds the Vikings would score, because they had more time and didn’t have to use a timeout. And it did work against Campbell. Minnesota was able to call two plays that immediately put them in great position. Just happened to be that zimmer made his own terrible decisions that helped the lions.

It worked out, but odds say it shouldn’t have.  

[Motown Bombers]

14 minutes ago, TP_Fan said:

Let’s not pretend there wasn’t a reason given.  The reason is that by Campbell calling the timeout he increased the odds the Vikings would score, because they had more time and didn’t have to use a timeout. And it did work against Campbell. Minnesota was able to call two plays that immediately put them in great position. Just happened to be that zimmer made his own terrible decisions that helped the lions.

It worked out, but odds say it shouldn’t have.  

How much did those odds increase? Where is the data? How many extra plays did Minnesota gain from that timeout? 1? How much did the odds increase that the Lions would score before the end of the half?

I'm totally blown away that the concept of stopping the clock before halftime in order to secure an extra possession is so radical and terrible. Not only that, it worked and was the difference in the game. This has to be some sort of derrangement syndrome. 

[RedRamage]

Having read through this thread I think WAAAAAYYYYYYYY too much is being made out of this TO call.

I think it was reasonable to call the TO. Prior to this drive the last two drives by the Vikings:

6 plays, 14 yards, fumble
6 plays, 16 yards, punt

Before the TO: Vikings got a pass off for 2 yards.  This means in the previous 13 offensive plays by the Vikings they averaged less than 2.5 yards per play.  The Vikings were reeling, the Lions' offense was clicking (17 unanswered points). and the the Lions defense was stuffing the Vikings.  If the Lions stop the Vikings, get the ball and score then get the ball to start the 3rd qtr and score... let's say one is a TD the other FG, that would have put them at 24-6 with less than a half to play.  This not an unreasonable expectation given how the game was playing out to that point.  I don't see it as a bad move to call the TO and hope for another possession.

Now the comeback I've seen thrown out here is if it was such a good idea, why didn't Campbell call another TO after the next play? Again, this is very reasonable.  The Vikings got a big gain on the next play (16 yards) so it seems less likely that the Lions would get a quick stop, so now you don't call another TO.  That's honestly GOOD coaching.

How many times do we see a team that's got just a little time left in a half try a play or two and if they don't good yardage just kneel and run out the clock.  Is that bad coaching? No, it's testing the waters and then when things don't pan out you shift gears.

I will be honest, during the game I also thought it was odd to call a time out then... but looking at the stats and situation after, I think it makes all the sense in the world.  A defense was humming and just stopped a pass for two yards deep in Vikings territory, the chance for a quick 3 and out resulting in good field position was there.  It was the right call.

[RandyMarsh]

Regarding the Timeout. Most Head Coaches carry a chart with them with what the advanced metrics say in regards to timeouts in certain situations, they don't just wing it out of nowhere without any rhyme or reason. Same with 4th down calls and 2pt conversions.

Of course the flow and play of the game may make them skew from what the chart says and go more with their gut but I best majority of the time they just look at the chart and use that.

Edited December 6, 2021 by RandyMarsh

[Motown Bombers]

6 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

Regarding the Timeout. Most Head Coaches carry a chart with them with what the advanced metrics say in regards to timeouts in certain situations, they don't just wing it out of nowhere without any rhyme or reason. Same with 4th down calls and 2pt conversions.

Of course the flow and play of the game may make them skew from what the chart says and go more with their gut but I best majority of the time they just look at the chart and use that.

The Lions do one better. They have an actual person in the booth who feeds Campbell the odds on things like that. Given the likely odds the Lions could get one more score, and the fact the Lions held them to only 6 points the entire half, it seemed perfectly reasonable to try to get another possession.