Random NFL comments/thoughts

[Hongbit]

Nothing is as dumb as the idiotic Brian Flores career killing lawsuit but the Commanders name is close.  

[RedRamage]

14 minutes ago, Hongbit said:

Nothing is as dumb as the idiotic Brian Flores career killing lawsuit but the Commanders name is close.  

I guess I don't consider it dumb if Flores really feels he's been discriminated against.  I do think he's got a very uphill battle to prove that he was so you could argue that it's dumb in that regard... that even if he was discriminated against he has a low shot of winning and sacrificing his career on principle could be considered dumb.

But if he truly feels he was held back because of racism then I can't fault the guy for standing up for his convictions. He may feel that his career is all be killed anyway because he feels the NFL is racist and he'd never amount to much.

Maybe the USFL will need a new coach next year?

[RedRamage]

10 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

31 NFL teams have a one or two syllable short form name. "Commanders" is a non-shortenable 3 syllabler. I guess Washington will end up the "Commies" in the end after all.

 

'manders??  Comms??

[1984Echoes]

16 minutes ago, RedRamage said:

'manders??  Comms??

The 'Mandies?

How's that work...?

[chasfh]

Go Commies!

[chasfh]

1 hour ago, Hongbit said:

Nothing is as dumb as the idiotic Brian Flores career killing lawsuit but the Commanders name is close.  

Apparently Flores is so fed up that he doesn't believe that under the current system he has any chance to be an effective coach, with as much support and leeway for mistakes, as a white coach would have a chance to. He'd rather try to change the system and maybe not coach anymore, versus trying to shapeshift himself to accommodate the system and maybe not coach anymore.

His story sounds kind of familiar ...

[buddha]

i love the idea that white coaches are somehow given a bunch of leeway in the nfl now.  that the giants just said, "you know what?  joe judge is bad, but he's white so were gonna keep him."

all coaches are fired very quickly in the nfl nowadays.  black and white.  and very few are re-hired after they fail.

[chasfh]

I guess we'll see whether the courts agree with you.

[RedRamage]

10 minutes ago, buddha said:

i love the idea that white coaches are somehow given a bunch of leeway in the nfl now.  that the giants just said, "you know what?  joe judge is bad, but he's white so were gonna keep him."

all coaches are fired very quickly in the nfl nowadays.  black and white.  and very few are re-hired after they fail.

The thing is that I think coaches who have a track record of some level of success are given longer to make it happen. This probably leans towards white coaches getting a bit more leeway as white coaches have traditionally been hired more frequently... that's shifting somewhat now, but still heavily favors whites.  This isn't due to current racism necessarily but past racism, and as such makes a good argument for programs that the NFL could use to try to combat these left over effects of past racism, ie Institutional Racism.  This is just my opinion of course... I haven't done any research to back this up so I might be talking out of my backside, but I think it makes sense.

As for Flores... I think he kinda has the track record now.  He didn't have amazing success in Miami, but he did have some success there and I think that would earn him a bit more leeway in his next job.  Of course this could be countered by the rumor that he was difficult to work with (if true).

[buddha]

Just now, chasfh said:

I guess we'll see whether the courts agree with you.

its a purported class action.  who else is joining the class?  how can they certify it?

i dont understand the premise of the suit unless he's claiming the dolphins fired him because he's black.  which will be really hard to prove.

the nfl will settle and make more promises.  pay off flores' lawyers.  maybe give him a cushy job in the nfl as head of diversity and inclusion practices or something like that.

[chasfh]

2 minutes ago, buddha said:

its a purported class action.  who else is joining the class?  how can they certify it?

i dont understand the premise of the suit unless he's claiming the dolphins fired him because he's black.  which will be really hard to prove.

the nfl will settle and make more promises.  pay off flores' lawyers.  maybe give him a cushy job in the nfl as head of diversity and inclusion practices or something like that.

That would be the traditional outcome.

[buddha]

2 minutes ago, RedRamage said:

The thing is that I think coaches who have a track record of some level of success are given longer to make it happen. This probably leans towards white coaches getting a bit more leeway as white coaches have traditionally been hired more frequently... that's shifting somewhat now, but still heavily favors whites.  This isn't due to current racism necessarily but past racism, and as such makes a good argument for programs that the NFL could use to try to combat these left over effects of past racism, ie Institutional Racism.  This is just my opinion of course... I haven't done any research to back this up so I might be talking out of my backside, but I think it makes sense.

As for Flores... I think he kinda has the track record now.  He didn't have amazing success in Miami, but he did have some success there and I think that would earn him a bit more leeway in his next job.  Of course this could be countered by the rumor that he was difficult to work with (if true).

the filing of this lawsuit is exhibit a that he is hard to work with.  if youre an owner of a team (or any organization), would you hire a guy that wont listen to you and doesnt do what you want?  who filed a class action lawsuit against you the minute he got canned and while he's interviewing for other jobs?  think about your own work experience.  we've all worked with people who complain and say everything is always someone else's fault.

working with an owner is part of the deal when you get hired.  you kinda have to do what the boss wants.

[Hongbit]

I am not sure if this is a calculated move to help bring about change or if it’s a disgruntled employee that was fired for not being able to get along with management lashing out.   Either way, I think it’s amazingly stupid for many reasons

1) He was not a Rooney Rule interview.   The Giants actually interviewed Leslie Frazier twice and had already met the requirement.    His was a legitimate interview even though they had a strong front runner for the job   

2) He appears to be basing his entire claim on a heresay text from Bill Belichick.  He’s not in the Giants organization so anything he hears is just rumor.    It’s I heard from someone who heard from someone who heard from someone.    That’s not strong enough to make these type of clams. 
 

3) He went on the interview.   This part I just don’t get if he really felt so slighted.  Makes no sense.  Pull out and make a stand. This happens often actually. Don’t go to the interview as a long shot and then blow things up later when they go with the favorite.
 

4) He has rolled another complaint against Stephen Ross into his Giants complaint  and has completely defamed Ross. Even if this is deserved, I don’t get why he’s merging a completely different issue with Ross into his complaint with the Giants and Rooney Rule.    That’s a huge accusation saying Ross was willing to pay him to lose.   I hope he’s got actual evidence and isn’t just saying stuff that he doesn’t have receipts for.  
 

5) Maybe the biggest mistake is that he’s apparently gone solo on this campaign and elected to go public without gathering support from other black head coaches and assistants.  Duce Staley and Aaron Glenn have both come out and said the exact opposite of Flores and they appreciate the opportunities to interview.  I expect most others will say the same or offer no comment.   It just makes him look more and more like the bitter employer that has gone rogue after getting fired.  
 

The entire suit seems very impulsive and not the least bit calculated.  This is a huge problem for someone in a profession that requires calculated decisions and behavior.    Maybe he’ll make someone a good college coach because he will never work again in the NFL.  

 

Edited February 2, 2022 by Hongbit

[RedRamage]

I'm reading through the lawsuit... Now I'm not a lawyer so I might misunderstand a lot of things here, but FWIW, here's my thoughts:

Points 5 and 6 I see an a glaring issue.  Point 5 makes the claim that many players desire to coach or get into management level positions in the NFL and then cites the relatively low number of black executives, HCs, and coordinators. The first problem here is the "many players." I'd expect that court would want evidence of this. Point 6 though makes the claim that these low numbers come from a player pool that's 70% Black.  This is a glaring issue in my opinion because it assumes that former players are the only source of coaches and executives.  This is patently untrue.

Points 7 and 8 (NFL execs admitting to issues with diversity) are some good points, but seem weak on facts.  Particularly pt 7 referencing three fired Black Coaches... way too small of a sample size to draw conclusions imho.

[Motown Bombers]

5 minutes ago, Hongbit said:

I am not sure if this is a calculated move to help bring about change or if it’s a disgruntled employee that was fired for not being able to get along with management lashing out.   Either way, I think it’s amazingly stupid for many reasons

1) He was not a Rooney Rule interview.   The Giants actually interviewed Leslie Frazier twice and had already met the requirement.    His was a legitimate interview even though they had a strong front runner for the job   

2) He appears to be basing his entire claim on a heresay text from Bill Belichick.  He’s not in the Giants organization so anything he hears is just rumor.    It’s I heard from someone who heard from someone who heard from someone.    That’s not strong enough to make these type of clams. 
 

3) He went on the interview.   This part I just don’t get if he really felt so slighted.  Makes no sense.  Pull out and make a stand. This happens often actually. Don’t go to the interview as a long shot and then blow things up later when they go with the favorite.
 

4) He has rolled another complaint against Stephen Ross into his Giants complaint  and has completely defamed Ross. Even if this is deserved, I don’t get why he’s merging a completely different issue with Ross into his complaint with the Giants and Rooney Rule.    That’s a huge accusation saying Ross was willing to pay him to lose.   I hope he’s got actual evidence and isn’t just saying stuff that he doesn’t have receipts for.  
 

5) Maybe the biggest mistake is that he’s apparently gone solo on this campaign and elected to go public without gathering support from other black head coaches and assistants.  Duce Staley and Aaron Glenn have both come out and said the exact opposite of Flores and they appreciate the opportunities to interview.  I expect most others will say the same or offer no comment.   It just makes him look more and more like the bitter employer that has gone rogue after getting fired.  
 

The entire suit seems very impulsive and not the least bit calculated.  This is a huge problem for someone in a profession that requires calculated decisions and behavior.    Maybe he’ll make someone a good college coach because he will never work again in the NFL.  

 

I believe the Rooney rule now is an NFL team has to interview two minority candidates and they cannot already be on the team. In that case, Flores would then have been a Rooney rule interview. 

[Motown Bombers]

When I interviewed for the job I have now, I knew I wasn't going to get it. There was a woman who was the daughter of the HR exec screening for the role and friends with the hiring manager that was interviewing. I still went on the interview. As I expected, I wasn't offered and this other person was. However, she accepted another position and I was then offered the job. Sure I was their silver medal but I'm still getting paid just the same. 

[Motown Bombers]

6 minutes ago, RedRamage said:

I'm reading through the lawsuit... Now I'm not a lawyer so I might misunderstand a lot of things here, but FWIW, here's my thoughts:

Points 5 and 6 I see an a glaring issue.  Point 5 makes the claim that many players desire to coach or get into management level positions in the NFL and then cites the relatively low number of black executives, HCs, and coordinators. The first problem here is the "many players." I'd expect that court would want evidence of this. Point 6 though makes the claim that these low numbers come from a player pool that's 70% Black.  This is a glaring issue in my opinion because it assumes that former players are the only source of coaches and executives.  This is patently untrue.

Points 7 and 8 (NFL execs admitting to issues with diversity) are some good points, but seem weak on facts.  Particularly pt 7 referencing three fired Black Coaches... way too small of a sample size to draw conclusions imho.

I kind of wonder why they don't question why the league is 70% black when the population is roughly 13% black. Is there any out reach to get more white, Hispanic, and Asian kids involved in football? 

[RedRamage]

6 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

I believe the Rooney rule now is an NFL team has to interview two minority candidates and they cannot already be on the team. In that case, Flores would then have been a Rooney rule interview. 

I haven't been able to find any details on that.  Do you have a source?

[Motown Bombers]

1 minute ago, RedRamage said:

I haven't been able to find any details on that.  Do you have a source?

It appears it just went into effect in 2021.

The Rooney Rule | NFL Football Operations

[Hongbit]

7 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

I believe the Rooney rule now is an NFL team has to interview two minority candidates and they cannot already be on the team. In that case, Flores would then have been a Rooney rule interview. 

This is correct.   However, they also had 2nd interview in person scheduled with Leslie Frazier the very next day that would’ve met the Rooney Rule requirement for them.  

[Sports_Freak]

Claims he was offered money to lose games. Wow, that would really make the NFL look bad. This guy's coaching career is over.

[Motown Bombers]

Speaking of black coaches not getting a fair shake, Hue Jackson still kept his job after going 1-31.

 

[Motown Bombers]

3 minutes ago, Hongbit said:

This is correct.   However, they also had 2nd interview in person scheduled with Leslie Frazier the very next day that would’ve met the Rooney Rule requirement for them.  

I don't believe interviewing the same candidate twice counts. I believe the rule is interviewing at least two different candidates. 

[RedRamage]

13 minutes ago, RedRamage said:

I'm reading through the lawsuit... Now I'm not a lawyer so I might misunderstand a lot of things here, but FWIW, here's my thoughts:

 

Point 9 is interesting.  It points out that the NFL used race-norms when determining if retirees suffered from various brain injuries and paid out accordingly.  This is bring brought up, I'm sure, to show that the NFL has long standing policy of racism.  The problem here is both sides of the original suit that instituted this money for retires agreed to this (one could argue a couple of different ways on why hurts of doesn't hurt Flores' claims) but more importantly is that as of Oct '21 the NFL has agreed to stop doing this and allow past minority retirees to get retested.

Point 11 argues that less successful white coaches are often retained while black coaches are quickly fired. Again here I'd argue that the sample size is just too small to draw large conclusions from this.  For example, Campbell was clearly less successful on the field this year than Flores was, but the circumstances surrounding these two teams is vastly different.

Point 13 says the Rooney rules isn't working... which I agree with, but it again wrongly points to the percentage of black players vs. black coaches as proof.

Points 14 and 15 talk about why Flores was fired by Ross... but the claim isn't that Flores was fired because he was a minority, rather that Flores wouldn't cooperate with Ross's directives that were against league rules.  Assuming this is true that's very bad for Ross, but NOT proof of racism.

[Hongbit]

6 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

I don't believe interviewing the same candidate twice counts. I believe the rule is interviewing at least two different candidates. 

I’m not 100% sure either.   They must interview 2 candidates and must have 1 in person interview from outside the organization.   I believe the latter would also count for the former.