mtutiger Posted August 22, 2022 Share Posted August 22, 2022 (edited) 5 minutes ago, sabretooth said: And sometimes like the Tigers this year, the GM is unable for a host of reasons to do anything mid-season to correct things. If the GM/Front Office had remained frozen in indecision it would be so much worse -- at least firing AA creates a possible positive inflection point. It's admittedly hard to focus on the inflection point because there's a season still ongoing and we don't know who the team will hire and how much turnover they execute on this particular offseason. But as much as it sucks seeing Grossman do well elsewhere, the only thing that really matters is, to the extent that the Tigers analytics failed Grossman and possibly others, is how they remedy the failures going forward. Edited August 22, 2022 by mtutiger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted August 22, 2022 Share Posted August 22, 2022 3 hours ago, RatkoVarda said: yes, and the league adjusted and then they could find no counter move. The league adjusted and pitched to him like he was Ted Williams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted August 22, 2022 Share Posted August 22, 2022 3 hours ago, oblong said: Option 4) Hinch and Coolbaugh do look at the video but the systems and tools are not as useful as what the Braves had Option 5) Hinch and Coolbaugh do look at the video, Grossman makes adjustments, they don't work and the adjustments made by Grossman in the Braves are short term. Maybe he tried them here and the pitchers were too good or he was unlucky. Looking at video seems such an obvious thing to do that I have a hard time concluding nobody thought to do it. option 4 is certainly possible, but OTOH, if it was just a matter of seeing what he had changed you should be able to do that just with a side by side slo-mo and your own eyes and brain if you are being paid as a hitting coach. But still possible. option 5 doesn't seem to match the public narrative, but given the quality of sports reporting it does have to be considered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted August 22, 2022 Share Posted August 22, 2022 18 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: option 4 is certainly possible, but OTOH, if it was just a matter of seeing what he had changed you should be able to do that just with a side by side slo-mo and your own eyes and brain if you are being paid as a hitting coach. But still possible. option 5 doesn't seem to match the public narrative, but given the quality of sports reporting it does have to be considered. With regard to public narrative it could be like what they say in Spring Training with a new manager and how "everything feels different now. Guys are hustling. Throws are crisper. More engaged". Just BS nonsense that looks good on paper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyMarsh Posted August 22, 2022 Share Posted August 22, 2022 BTW Grossman is 1 for his last 10 with 1 walk and 5Ks dropping his OPS for the month down to .788. That .788 would be Ruthian compared to the rest of the squad but Grossman himself just posted a .735 month of June with us so if he continues to trend downward like he has been the past week he's going to end up right around that number or even worse. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted August 22, 2022 Share Posted August 22, 2022 10 minutes ago, oblong said: With regard to public narrative it could be like what they say in Spring Training with a new manager and how "everything feels different now. Guys are hustling. Throws are crisper. More engaged". Just BS nonsense that looks good on paper. Regarding the public narrative thing, optimism sells in Spring Training... particularly when you go back to March and knowing the Tigers finished strong last year, that's what the public wanted to consume. Fast forward to now, with the unpopular GM having been let go, stories about the resurrection of former players in different uniforms are what drive clicks. Not saying there isn't a story, there likely is. But the incentives are there for those who write a story about Grossman's (SSS) resurrection in a Braves' uniform. Especially with Al now gone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted August 22, 2022 Share Posted August 22, 2022 Since his last homer to spark that story he's at a .154/.214/.154 slash line.... I'm not saying the coaching staff is great but when going on about a team's analytics it's not a good data point to use a 3 game stretch as an obvious example from the outside of an organization's inner workings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cowan Posted August 22, 2022 Share Posted August 22, 2022 I'm having a hard time thinking of any ex-Tigers who performed better with their next organization. Does anyone have any suggestions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyMarsh Posted August 22, 2022 Share Posted August 22, 2022 1 minute ago, Jim Cowan said: I'm having a hard time thinking of any ex-Tigers who performed better with their next organization. Does anyone have any suggestions? It was a short period but didn't JD and Nick go on tears after they were traded? JD was obviously awesome here but IIRC he took it to even another level in Arizona where he was putting up prime Pujols or ARod type numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted August 22, 2022 Share Posted August 22, 2022 The biggest problem I have with the Grossman discussion isn't the insinuation that the Tigers are behind on being able to address problems with batters - if anything, the downturn / underperformances of so many of their regulars would suggest a systemic problem of some kind. It's more that it's backwards looking - if Al Avila were still GM and were still making personnel decisions with this club (both in terms of players and in terms of front office hiring), it would be one thing. But we are in an interregnum period between his stewardship and someone else, name to be revealed later - the problem that exists today doesn't have to exist a year or two from now, and it may not depending on who they hire to take this thing over. I understand why this stuff has traction, obviously, but the context is a lot different when the architect of the front office is now gone - someone else will get the opportunity to correct the mistakes, and for that we should at least be somewhat hopeful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyMarsh Posted August 22, 2022 Share Posted August 22, 2022 Suarez is probably the best recent example but he was really only up for such a short period for time with us it's hard to say whether the Reds should get credit for "turning him around" or if he would've done the same here if we hadn't given up on him so soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cowan Posted August 22, 2022 Share Posted August 22, 2022 Just now, RandyMarsh said: It was a short period but didn't JD and Nick go on tears after they were traded? JD was obviously awesome here but IIRC he took it to even another level in Arizona where he was putting up prime Pujols or ARod type numbers. JD had a monster half season there but I had thought it was because the NL was such a crap league at the time. Castellanos might be a good example, a developing player who improved. Suarez too now that you mention Castellanos, but the ballpark might have had something to do with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobrob2004 Posted August 22, 2022 Share Posted August 22, 2022 (edited) 42 minutes ago, Jim Cowan said: I'm having a hard time thinking of any ex-Tigers who performed better with their next organization. Does anyone have any suggestions? James McCann was an All-Star for the White Sox, but reverted back with the Mets. There's also C.J. Cron, but you can cry small sample size on that one. EDIT: Just saw Cron's OPS was .894 for the Tigers. I remember it being much lower. Edited August 22, 2022 by bobrob2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted August 22, 2022 Share Posted August 22, 2022 35 minutes ago, mtutiger said: The biggest problem I have with the Grossman discussion isn't the insinuation that the Tigers are behind on being able to address problems with batters - if anything, the downturn / underperformances of so many of their regulars would suggest a systemic problem of some kind. It's more that it's backwards looking - if Al Avila were still GM and were still making personnel decisions with this club (both in terms of players and in terms of front office hiring), it would be one thing. But we are in an interregnum period between his stewardship and someone else, name to be revealed later - the problem that exists today doesn't have to exist a year or two from now, and it may not depending on who they hire to take this thing over. I understand why this stuff has traction, obviously, but the context is a lot different when the architect of the front office is now gone - someone else will get the opportunity to correct the mistakes, and for that we should at least be somewhat hopeful. Why I have no issue with what Hinch said. He has nothing to gain by going further than he did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted August 22, 2022 Share Posted August 22, 2022 “They always do better when they leave” is a constant sports fan radio trope. people still going on about eesock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cowan Posted August 22, 2022 Share Posted August 22, 2022 1 minute ago, oblong said: “They always do better when they leave” is a constant sports fan radio trope. people still going on about eesock I agree, people like that should check his game logs The past 6 weeks he might be one of the 10 worst in baseball. Even on MTS though, brief periods of success for Paredes and Grossman create a sense that it is happening "again" and that everyone needs to be fired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigermojo Posted August 22, 2022 Share Posted August 22, 2022 Paredes went to a new division and Grossman went to a new league so I'm sure there's some time needed for pitchers to adjust. Also, small sample size should not be cause for heads exploding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted August 22, 2022 Share Posted August 22, 2022 33 minutes ago, Tigermojo said: Paredes went to a new division and Grossman went to a new league so I'm sure there's some time needed for pitchers to adjust. Also, small sample size should not be cause for heads exploding. Is the new league/division thing still a thing? Back in the day of separate leagues with distinct umpire rosters and their strike zones, sure. Back in the day with less player movement, sure. Back in the day with more written scouting reports rather than readily available video, sure. I would think adjusting to a new city/team/clubhouse is still a bit of a challenge for some players, especially mid season. But I suspect the on field stuff should be a bit easier than in the past. Or I could be way off, I don’t know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted August 22, 2022 Share Posted August 22, 2022 59 minutes ago, Tigermojo said: Paredes went to a new division and Grossman went to a new league so I'm sure there's some time needed for pitchers to adjust. Also, small sample size should not be cause for heads exploding. But it's not ultimately about whether Grossman gets better or not, it's about why the Braves covered ground with him the Tigers didn't. Now as Rob said, maybe in reality they had at least to some degree, but that didn't fit the narrative that either Grossman or the Braves or Cody S. wanted to sell. But if it is true that the Tigers hadn't, that still stands as an indictment even if Grossman crashes the rest of the way, and Hinch more or less admitted as much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted August 23, 2022 Share Posted August 23, 2022 21 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: But it's not ultimately about whether Grossman gets better or not, it's about why the Braves covered ground with him the Tigers didn't. Now as Rob said, maybe in reality they had at least to some degree, but that didn't fit the narrative that either Grossman or the Braves or Cody S. wanted to sell. But if it is true that the Tigers hadn't, that still stands as an indictment even if Grossman crashes the rest of the way, and Hinch more or less admitted as much. It seems like Hinch said something he didn't need to say. Did he learn that from Avila? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobrob2004 Posted August 23, 2022 Share Posted August 23, 2022 1 hour ago, Tigermojo said: Paredes went to a new division and Grossman went to a new league so I'm sure there's some time needed for pitchers to adjust. Also, small sample size should not be cause for heads exploding. It's not what Grossman is doing that's bothering me. It's Hinch's remarks about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longgone Posted August 23, 2022 Share Posted August 23, 2022 (edited) 26 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: But it's not ultimately about whether Grossman gets better or not, it's about why the Braves covered ground with him the Tigers didn't. Now as Rob said, maybe in reality they had at least to some degree, but that didn't fit the narrative that either Grossman or the Braves or Cody S. wanted to sell. But if it is true that the Tigers hadn't, that still stands as an indictment even if Grossman crashes the rest of the way, and Hinch more or less admitted as much. Grossman basically said he was grateful for the help he got from his new employers, an expected thing to say, and Hinch basically said the Tigers need to get better at things, also a bland, obvious statement, no reason to read so much into them. Edited August 23, 2022 by Longgone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyMarsh Posted August 23, 2022 Share Posted August 23, 2022 While Miggy limps his way to the finish line Pujols has discovered the fountain of youth, bashed another HR today bringing his career total to 693. In the past 2 weeks he has put up a higher slugging percentage than any 2 week stretch in his entire career! Also he has like an .860 OPS right now, he didn't have a single OPS that high in his entire 10 year run with the Angels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted August 23, 2022 Share Posted August 23, 2022 5 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said: While Miggy limps his way to the finish line Pujols has discovered the fountain of youth, bashed another HR today bringing his career total to 693. In the past 2 weeks he has put up a higher slugging percentage than any 2 week stretch in his entire career! Also he has like an .860 OPS right now, he didn't have a single OPS that high in his entire 10 year run with the Angels. 7 home runs in his last 10 games. And he is at least 42 years old. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hongbit Posted August 23, 2022 Share Posted August 23, 2022 8 hours ago, RandyMarsh said: While Miggy limps his way to the finish line Pujols has discovered the fountain of youth, bashed another HR today bringing his career total to 693. In the past 2 weeks he has put up a higher slugging percentage than any 2 week stretch in his entire career! Also he has like an .860 OPS right now, he didn't have a single OPS that high in his entire 10 year run with the Angels. His amazing stretch will come to a screeching halt today since I picked him up on my fantasy team last night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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