Religion

[chasfh]

Quote

Their high school canceled an LGBTQ play. These teens put it on anyway.

  --https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2023/05/31/marian-school-theater-lgbtq-indiana/

What do these kids know? They're only children. They are not old enough to form their own opinions. Their still-forming minds are being manipulated against their will by the woke gay agenda. They need to be taught godly moral values and what freedom really means while they are at school, first and foremost, if it takes every single minute they are in the building. The future of our republic is at stake. It's my tax dollars and I vote.

[smr-nj]

2 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

"Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land
And don't criticize
What you can't understand
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is rapidly agin'
Please get out of the new one
If you can't lend your hand"

For the times, they are a changin’.

[Tigeraholic1]

6 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

"Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land
And don't criticize
What you can't understand
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is rapidly agin'
Please get out of the new one
If you can't lend your hand"

Courious why you put this in the "Religion" thread? This occured in my city. This High School is 100% a public school in a 50K student, school district. I read through the article and there was no religous leaders involved with any reason why the school concert was canceled. I get it is wrong and all that but this really was not religouslly driven.

[gehringer_2]

23 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

Courious why you put this in the "Religion" thread? This occured in my city. This High School is 100% a public school in a 50K student, school district. I read through the article and there was no religous leaders involved with any reason why the school concert was canceled. I get it is wrong and all that but this really was not religouslly driven.

because from the public side, people responsible for shutting down the play were acting out their religious preferences in the public sphere. In the video accompanying the story you do get the clip of the opposing speaker invoking her Bible at the board meeting and talking about evil sins. It's naive to argue that opposition to public LGBT expression in the US is not primarliy religously based, even if public authority figures avoid being explcit themselves or use alternate rationalizations in bowing to those constituencies.

Edited May 31, 2023 by gehringer_2

[Tigeraholic1]

5 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

because people responsible for shutting down the play were acting out their religious preferences in the public sphere. In the story you get the clip of the opposing speaker waving her Bible at the board meeting and talking about evil sins. 

One lady waving a Bible shut it down or multiple people with Bibles? I guess I am confused. School boards here are elected officials. 

[gehringer_2]

9 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

One lady waving a Bible shut it down or multiple people with Bibles? I guess I am confused. School boards here are elected officials. 

that respond to pressure from religiously oriented constituents. QED. Seriously, the play is a comic romp, who else would have their panties in a bunch about it?

Edited May 31, 2023 by gehringer_2

[oblong]

Public officials should not be making official decisions because of what their Bible or any other religious text tells them. 

[Tigeraholic1]

4 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

that respond to pressure from religiously oriented constituents. QED. Seriously, the play is a comic romp, who else would have their panties in a bunch about it?

Let’s say a student  presented a play that included a reenactment of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. Would we not expect the “other” side to be at that same school board meeting protesting?

[HighOPS]

Since sincerely held beliefs get you out of following important laws like equal accomodations for public businesses, they should get you out of less important laws as well.

So, let me state that I believe I should be able to drink Two Hearted Ale anywhere, anytime. And I guarantee I believe this more than many Christians believe their faith. And I practice my belief more than many so-called faithful practice theirs. You might say these beliefs need to be 2000 years old (or maybe 150 if you want to include Mormons), but how long has beer been brewed? 5000 years? Beer drinkers deserve their accomodations more than all these young monothiest cults. Even Judaism is what only 3000 years old?

Also, in case that guy hired to work Sundays wins his USPS case that he doesn't have to work Sundays, the cult of the Two Hearted has its Sabbath on Wednesdays. 

[HighOPS]

1 minute ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

Let’s say a student  presented a play that included a reenactment of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. Would we not expect the “other” side to be at that same school board meeting protesting?

What are the "sides" here?

Whatever.

I'll join whichever side opposes a Fundamentalist Christian Theocracy in the United States.

 

 

[gehringer_2]

2 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

Let’s say a student  presented a play that included a reenactment of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. Would we not expect the “other” side to be at that same school board meeting protesting?

I'm not following where you are going? Are you posing the scenario that athiests would complain if school students did a play that was overtly proselytizing  or am I missing your meaning? A play which simply depicted/referenced the Crucification of Jesus as a historical event could go a hundred different ways so that seems too general a concept to pin down who might be mad about what.

[Tigeraholic1]

The point being the idea of freedom of speech is equally disturbed to all Americans. Anyone can protest and that’s their constitutional right no matter what you believe. I was using an extreme example to make a point NOT that it should be allowed in a public school. I would 1000 times expect anything to to with religion to be excluded from public schools. 
 
 

[Tigeraholic1]

16 minutes ago, HighOPS said:

What are the "sides" here?

Whatever.

I'll join whichever side opposes a Fundamentalist Christian Theocracy in the United States.

 

 

The side that opposed the play and the side that supported it. 

[Tigeraholic1]

22 minutes ago, HighOPS said:

Since sincerely held beliefs get you out of following important laws like equal accomodations for public businesses, they should get you out of less important laws as well.

So, let me state that I believe I should be able to drink Two Hearted Ale anywhere, anytime. And I guarantee I believe this more than many Christians believe their faith. And I practice my belief more than many so-called faithful practice theirs. You might say these beliefs need to be 2000 years old (or maybe 150 if you want to include Mormons), but how long has beer been brewed? 5000 years? Beer drinkers deserve their accomodations more than all these young monothiest cults. Even Judaism is what only 3000 years old?

Also, in case that guy hired to work Sundays wins his USPS case that he doesn't have to work Sundays, the cult of the Two Hearted has its Sabbath on Wednesdays. 

You can’t drink alcohol in a public school. But I like how you also used an extreme example.
 

Two hearted is my favorite beer as well. Voodoo Ranger Juice Force is slowly making its way into my fridge. 9.5 ABV you gotta be careful though.

[gehringer_2]

51 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

I would 1000 times expect anything to to with religion to be excluded from public schools. 

Agreed there.

It's funny - I'm pretty sure there was a copy of the 10 commandments on one of the hallway walls in my elementary school, (talking 60+ yrs ago) and I'm sure we sang Christmas Carols in music classes, so the Judeo Christian culture was imposing itself everywhere, yet it was a completely passive thing - it was simply a matter of its ubiquity. And despite that cultural immersion it was in a sense completely unrecognized, and our schools actually were scrupulously secular in all educational aspects and everyone was happy to have it that way.

Certainly the English history of sectarian strife between Catholicism and Protestantism meant the US inherited a  strong stance of religious tolerance to the point of adding it the Constitution, - but I'd argue it was on one level only theoretical. And I say that because it was a tolerance that always assumed a more global acceptance of Christian dominance. While there were certainly some free thinkers among the Founders, to most people in America 'Freedom of Religion' never actually meant more than freedom from Christian sectarian coercion and maybe a stronger rejection of anti-semitism than Europe usually mustered. They had no real imagination of the implications of the concept beyond that. I don't believe the idea of rejecting the dominant Western religous paradigm altogether was ever a serious part of the consciousness in pre 20th Century American.

The idea on the part of the Christian religious that they would ever be in a defensive posture wrt the larger society never crossed anyone's mind, and the result was a certain kind of tolerance born of knowledge that the dominant culture could be "magnanamous" because it knew its position was so fundamentally secure.

Fast forward to today and in the face of actually losing that cultual hegemon, the sectors of the Christain church that have forgotten that they were charged to be 'in this world but not of this world" don't like that new reality very much and are perfectly happy to fight back politically even if it means ignoring once fundamental US civic principles like separation of Church and State.

Edited June 1, 2023 by gehringer_2

[HighOPS]

33 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

You can’t drink alcohol in a public school. But I like how you also used an extreme example.
 

Two hearted is my favorite beer as well. Voodoo Ranger Juice Force is slowly making its way into my fridge. 9.5 ABV you gotta be careful though.

M43 or any Old Nation IPA.

I obviously think society works better without the recent revisions on first amendment law by justices reflecting the values of those who appointed them. 

I would argue that my example is the opposite of extreme compared to allowing bias in the public sector  We know from recent history that allowing private citizens to discriminate in the public sector is problematic and I'm shocked we are returning to it. 

I'd also argue that my example is less of a strawman argument than the reference to free speech. No one said someone can't protest to the board. But, clearly religious groups are behind most attempts to restrict LGBTQ focused materials in schools. 

 

 

[oblong]

The hazy two hearted is good. I loved M43 when it first came out and I think I got burned out on it. Lately I have been going low cal and sticking with All Day or an equivalent. Once or twice a week I will splurge on a higher content.  It’s helped me drop some pounds.  After Easter I realized I was having too much. Sometimes 3-4 a day just out of habit as the days got warmer. Just got back from Aruba at an all inclusive so I loaded up on the tropical drinks and cocktails.  Only had one local beer that was stocked in our fridge just to see if it was good. A Pilsner so nothing heavy. 

[Jim Cowan]

2 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

Agreed there.

It's funny - I'm pretty sure there was a copy of the 10 commandments on one of the hallway walls in my elementary school, (talking 60+ yrs ago) and I'm sure we sang Christmas Carols in music classes, so the Judeo Christian culture was imposing itself everywhere, yet it was a completely passive thing - it was simply a matter of its ubiquity. And despite that cultural immersion it was in a sense completely unrecognized, and our schools actually were scrupulously secular in all educational aspects and everyone was happy to have it that way.

Certainly the English history of sectarian strife between Catholicism and Protestantism meant the US inherited a  strong stance of religious tolerance to the point of adding it the Constitution, - but I'd argue it was on one level only theoretical. And I say that because it was a tolerance that always assumed a more global acceptance of Christian dominance. While there were certainly some free thinkers among the Founders, to most people in America 'Freedom of Religion' never actually meant more than freedom from Christian sectarian coercion and maybe a stronger rejection of anti-semitism than Europe usually mustered. They had no real imagination of the implications of the concept beyond that. I don't believe the idea of rejecting the dominant Western religous paradigm altogether was ever a serious part of the consciousness in pre 20th Century American.

The idea on the part of the Christian religious that they would ever be in a defensive posture wrt the larger society never crossed anyone's mind, and the result was a certain kind of tolerance born of knowledge that the dominant culture could be "magnanamous" because it knew its position was so fundamentally secure.

Fast forward to today and in the face of actually losing that cultual hegemon, the sectors of the Christain church that have forgotten that they were charged to be 'in this world but not of this world" don't like that new reality very much and are perfectly happy to fight back politically even if it means ignoring once fundamental US civic principles like separation of Church and State.

This is what I don't like about you, you are so superficial.

[HighOPS]

10 hours ago, oblong said:

The hazy two hearted is good. I loved M43 when it first came out and I think I got burned out on it. Lately I have been going low cal and sticking with All Day or an equivalent. Once or twice a week I will splurge on a higher content.  It’s helped me drop some pounds.  After Easter I realized I was having too much. Sometimes 3-4 a day just out of habit as the days got warmer. Just got back from Aruba at an all inclusive so I loaded up on the tropical drinks and cocktails.  Only had one local beer that was stocked in our fridge just to see if it was good. A Pilsner so nothing heavy. 

I do like Hazy.

My best (worst?) experience at an all-inclusive was discovering Brugal XV on ice. Mrs. HighOPS tips above local conventions and so my glass never emptied. Amusingly at one pool I was ordering it as Brugal Quince and the bartender served it. A couple days later at the other pool I tried to order it and both bartenders looked confused. I guess it is really named after the letters (approx "Brugal Eckay Bay"). We had a good laugh. 

[CMRivdogs]

12 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

Agreed there.

It's funny - I'm pretty sure there was a copy of the 10 commandments on one of the hallway walls in my elementary school, (talking 60+ yrs ago) and I'm sure we sang Christmas Carols in music classes, so the Judeo Christian culture was imposing itself everywhere, yet it was a completely passive thing - it was simply a matter of its ubiquity. And despite that cultural immersion it was in a sense completely unrecognized, and our schools actually were scrupulously secular in all educational aspects and everyone was happy to have it that way.

Certainly the English history of sectarian strife between Catholicism and Protestantism meant the US inherited a  strong stance of religious tolerance to the point of adding it the Constitution, - but I'd argue it was on one level only theoretical. And I say that because it was a tolerance that always assumed a more global acceptance of Christian dominance. While there were certainly some free thinkers among the Founders, to most people in America 'Freedom of Religion' never actually meant more than freedom from Christian sectarian coercion and maybe a stronger rejection of anti-semitism than Europe usually mustered. They had no real imagination of the implications of the concept beyond that. I don't believe the idea of rejecting the dominant Western religous paradigm altogether was ever a serious part of the consciousness in pre 20th Century American.

The idea on the part of the Christian religious that they would ever be in a defensive posture wrt the larger society never crossed anyone's mind, and the result was a certain kind of tolerance born of knowledge that the dominant culture could be "magnanamous" because it knew its position was so fundamentally secure.

Fast forward to today and in the face of actually losing that cultual hegemon, the sectors of the Christain church that have forgotten that they were charged to be 'in this world but not of this world" don't like that new reality very much and are perfectly happy to fight back politically even if it means ignoring once fundamental US civic principles like separation of Church and State.

I'm too far away in age to know what or what is not being taught in regards to Separation of Church and State in public or private schools, let alone universities. My belief that the Establishment Clause of the Constitution stemmed from the fact that while we were once British subjects we no longer recognize the Anglican Church as the main decider of religious beliefs and the church should not be the the deciding factor in secular issues.  This reasoning allowed other religious sects (Catholics, Jews, Presbyterians, Baptists, Moravians and so forth) to practice their beliefs without fear of repercussions. This is something that the loudest of conservative christian sects do not understand. They have a right to practice what they believe, they do not have the right to force it on others.
 

 

[Tigerbomb13]

1 hour ago, HighOPS said:

I do like Hazy.

My best (worst?) experience at an all-inclusive was discovering Brugal XV on ice. Mrs. HighOPS tips above local conventions and so my glass never emptied. Amusingly at one pool I was ordering it as Brugal Quince and the bartender served it. A couple days later at the other pool I tried to order it and both bartenders looked confused. I guess it is really named after the letters (approx "Brugal Eckay Bay"). We had a good laugh. 

One of my favorite part of living in Ann Arbor now is being near HOMES Brewing. They don’t really distribute, but their hazies are probably my favorite from Michigan. 

[Tigeraholic1]

35 minutes ago, CMRivdogs said:

I'm too far away in age to know what or what is not being taught in regards to Separation of Church and State in public or private schools, let alone universities. My belief that the Establishment Clause of the Constitution stemmed from the fact that while we were once British subjects we no longer recognize the Anglican Church as the main decider of religious beliefs and the church should not be the the deciding factor in secular issues.  This reasoning allowed other religious sects (Catholics, Jews, Presbyterians, Baptists, Moravians and so forth) to practice their beliefs without fear of repercussions. This is something that the loudest of conservative christian sects do not understand. They have a right to practice what they believe, they do not have the right to force it on others.
 

 

Agreed 100%. I chose to send my kids to Christian private schools. In that same token I would expect public schools to exclude any religous teachings or ideas. LGBTQ is a whole seperate issue and should be accommodated in the public school sector. 

New twist now in states like Indiana that now have school choice scholarships (vouchers). Now that religous schools are accepting public funding I expect some change. How does the old saying go? You let a camel stick its head into the tent, pretty soon the camel lives in the tent or something like that.

[chasfh]

Churches already pay no taxes. Now we're giving them taxpayer-funded subsides? ****ing A, I gotta start my own church and get in on the grift.

[Tigeraholic1]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

Churches already pay no taxes. Now we're giving them taxpayer-funded subsides? ****ing A, I gotta start my own church and get in on the grift.

Private schools are not churches. They are subject to taxes but nice research!

[chasfh]

37 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

Private schools are not churches. They are subject to taxes but nice research!

Lived experience.