gehringer_2 Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 (edited) 3 minutes ago, romad1 said: They have gotten to that stage in the occupied areas and the irony part is not helping them with the rest of Ukraine. The other part worth noting is that Iraq was full of both guns and martyrdom ideology on all sides in a way that probably nowhere in Europe is. Edited December 2, 2022 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 3 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: The other part worth noting is that Iraq was full of both guns and martyrdom ideology on all sides in a way that probably nowhere in Europe is. Also different. Our technical warfighting acumen far exceeds anything Russia has demonstrated. The tactical flexibility of Western militaries has allowed Ulundi type disasters to become Roark's Drifts. Or to be more recent: allows Blackhawk Downs to become 73 Eastings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 On 11/29/2022 at 6:41 PM, Screwball said: So fill me in here. Where is the proof we have tried to bargain to halt this war? I think I read "behind the scenes" but I don't know what exactly that means. https://www.yahoo.com/news/ukraine-war-biden-prepared-meet-082353083.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 7 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: https://www.yahoo.com/news/ukraine-war-biden-prepared-meet-082353083.html How would Ukraine have negotiated with people who want to slaughter them? How would the United States have negotiated without Ukraine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 37 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: ... The US in Iraq failed primarily on not appreciating that we couldn't simply install the 'out-party' into power just because they were the majority and expect them, despite decades of suppression, to have the civil institutions already present to create a functional civil infrastructure. It's years later and they are still stuggling to do that. I'm not sure how it could have been done... The simple solution was to NOT allow the Shia to demand an immediate handover of the government to them, but rather, to instead enforce a MacArthur Plan (as in General MacArthur dictatorship over Japan for 7 years) whereby the US maintained control over Iraq for at least a few years and... Enforced a tripartite provisional government on Iraq with an equal say from each of the Shia, Sunni and Kurdish regions, including a Tri-Presidential office (2 of 3 votes to win on any position/ law/ etc...), an equal sharing of oil revenues between the 3 regions (Sunni are currently shut out since they have no oil), an agreement to rebuild Sunni areas as they were the areas most devastated by the US takeover (I know Sunnis/ Saddam were the cause of all angst prior to the US but gotta put them back together again, for the people, not the old political/ repressive establishment), NOT just disband the Sunni military forces (this was the cause of, first, Al-Queda in Iraq consisting of all fired Sunni officers and military personnel, and then ISIS which also was initially comprised of 95% of these fired Sunni officers and military... all done at the demands of the Shia... just... STUPID!!!) but instead start an immediate integration program to have equal representation from all 3 regions in a representative military. I don't know if this succeeds any better, or worse, than actual history. But I am firm in my belief that I had the correct plan, to put the country in its best possible position to succeed, rather than just giving in COMPLETELY to Shia demands... who had an OBVIOUS axe to grind with the Sunni... Just my 2 cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted December 2, 2022 Author Share Posted December 2, 2022 22 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: https://www.yahoo.com/news/ukraine-war-biden-prepared-meet-082353083.html "No no no no ... where is the actual proof?" 😉 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 More from the RUSI report: Quote Putting aside operational-level planning, even down to the level of platoon, the experience of junior officers and soldiers was to observe – for months – Russian positions that posed a threat to them and their comrades. These units had made extensive plans among themselves as to how they would defeat these positions in the event of war. This was a major advantage for Ukraine. The empowered junior leader who has enough experience to know the way things work, and has enough flexibility to make a plan with backups in the event things get serious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, 1984Echoes said: The simple solution was to NOT allow the Shia to demand an immediate handover of the government to them, but rather, to instead enforce a MacArthur Plan (as in General MacArthur dictatorship over Japan for 7 years) whereby the US maintained control over Iraq for at least a few years and... Yup, assuming we could have engineered that kind of evolution in Iraqi society, or whether the effort itself would simply have empowered the radicals at the grass roots - an open question to me. Islam creates a strong built in bias against pacification by 'the Infidel'. But regardless of that, of course the political imperative was *elections* because that is what we think we have a mandate to do. Even the good guys can have ideological blind spots. Once there was a free election, the die was cast for chaos. And to be fair, the Iraqi's are slowly and haltingly trying to build some kind of civil consensus now. Hopefully they get there before some other form of autocracy emerges and strangles it. Edited December 2, 2022 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 1 hour ago, romad1 said: How would Ukraine have negotiated with people who want to slaughter them? How would the United States have negotiated without Ukraine? 1 hour ago, chasfh said: "No no no no ... where is the actual proof?" 😉 Probably not the best article to quote... But it's also not hard to Google and still find info - not widely published or announced - where the US is working hand-in-hand with the Ukrainian government to step-by-step plan/ process/ supply the war effort against Russia. But ALSO that the US is behind-the-scenes advising the military AND pressing Zelensky to be open to negotiations, including getting Zelensky to drop the "no-negotiations-with-Russia-while-Putin-is-still-in-power" stance that he had announced. To Romad's point: Putin just announced that he will start negotiating once the US recognizes the territory that Putin WANTS to steal from Ukraine: the 4 provinces, and not before. Total non-starter. Also... I NEVER said the US was negotiating without Ukraine. I said the US is pressing, quietly, on both sides to give-in a little and start negotiating. But NOTHING gets done without Ukraine's consent. And since Russia is the belligerent and the laughably obtuse... I don't see anything happening soon. Ukraine needs to keep taking back their stolen territory before Russia will take them seriously. Push Russian forces back in all 4 provinces, and now endangering Russia's hold on Crimea, would do it. We're not there yet. Ukraine is not there yet. And, completely, understandably, unwilling to negotiate until they achieve more battlefield success, a reasonable assumption. And not until Putin quits fucking around and starts to take them seriously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 (edited) 13 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: Correct, assuming we could have engineered that kind of evolution in Iraqi society, or whether the effort itself woud simply have empowered the radicals at the grass roots - an open question to me. Islam creates a strong built in bias against pacification by 'the Infidel'. But regardless of that, of course the political imperative was *elections* because that is what we think we have a mandate to do. Even the good guys can have ideological blind spots. Once there was a free election, the die was cast for chaos - in the end it was that simple really. Specifically since, the guys who were going to win those elections, at the top (not the representative Iraqi "Congress"), would be the Shia... who had a serious axe to grind against the Sunni, and who are constantly arguing against/ thwarting the Kurds... not to mention the inherent corruption at the top... It bode very ill towards reconciliation or a coming together of the country and, especially with the Shia-hell-bent-for-revenge against the Sunni... an ABSOLUTE KNOWN that the country would descend into civil war. And the Bush Administration/ Rumsfeld/ etc. played DIRECTLY into their hands. Like I said, I have no idea if my plan was any better... but a few SIMPLE measures that were not taken, IMO, would have changed the outcome considerably (tripartite Presidency, enforced revenue sharing, NOT disbanding the Sunni Army, US control for at least a few years to try and get these measures to take hold). Maybe they descend anyways... but I'd rather put them in the best position to succeed rather than the best position to civil war.... Just my 2 cents. Edited December 2, 2022 by 1984Echoes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted December 2, 2022 Author Share Posted December 2, 2022 7 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: Probably not the best article to quote... This wasn't a critique of your source, but rather a joke about how many folks wouldn't accept any mainstream journalistic outlet as a source. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 2 minutes ago, chasfh said: This wasn't a critique of your source, but rather a joke about how many folks wouldn't accept any mainstream journalistic outlet as a source. Yeah I gotcha.... And even if I had hard proof in my hands and put it right in front of the face of a certain few people they'd still say "I don't believe it... I only believe in my own narrative and your hard evidence doesn't fit my narrative so...". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted December 2, 2022 Author Share Posted December 2, 2022 Just now, 1984Echoes said: Yeah I gotcha.... And even if I had hard proof in my hands and put it right in front of the face of a certain few people they'd still say "I don't believe it... I only believe in my own narrative and your so-called "evidence" doesn't fit my narrative so...". Exactly ... FTFY, too ... 😁 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 Yeah, that's better... "So-called evidence" is sort of like "But I have Alternative Facts".... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 Crazy Eddy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smr-nj Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 Lay down with dogs, get up with fleas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 1 minute ago, smr-nj said: Lay down with dogs, get up with fleas. Worst part It’s unclear whether Snowden swore the oath of allegiance at the same time as he was granted a passport, but the two are common procedures when foreigners become Russian citizens. The text includes swearing “to protect the freedom and independence of the Russian Federation, to be loyal to Russia, to respect its culture, history and traditions,” and to promise to “perform the duties of a citizen of the Russian Federation for the good of the state and society.” Snowden has already broken his oath to the United States Constitution…so this oath must be really sincere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted December 2, 2022 Author Share Posted December 2, 2022 10 minutes ago, romad1 said: Crazy Eddy What would have crazy is returning to the United Sates to face espionage charges. He got the absolute best deal anyone in his situation could get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 (edited) Also, hipsters be like…i didn’t think the nation state or borders meant anything anymore…. They do Edited December 2, 2022 by romad1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 9 minutes ago, chasfh said: What would have crazy is returning to the United Sates to face espionage charges. He got the absolute best deal anyone in his situation could get. He has kept the hangman or lethal injection man at bay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted December 3, 2022 Share Posted December 3, 2022 True Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted December 3, 2022 Share Posted December 3, 2022 1 hour ago, chasfh said: What would have crazy is returning to the United Sates to face espionage charges. He got the absolute best deal anyone in his situation could get. Except the next headline is (will be): "Snowden just conscripted into the Russian Army and has been sent to Kherson province to help stem recent Ukrainian advances towards Crimea..." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted December 3, 2022 Share Posted December 3, 2022 53 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: Except the next headline is (will be): "Snowden just conscripted into the Russian Army and has been sent to Kherson province to help stem recent Ukrainian advances towards Crimea..." Who wouldn't want him in a trench fighting by your side? He's the sort of guy who seems steadfast and true to his comrades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted December 11, 2022 Author Share Posted December 11, 2022 "You can't trust anyone. You can trust only me." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted December 12, 2022 Share Posted December 12, 2022 Huge, if true Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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