Gun Legislation, Crime, and Events

[Motor City Sonics]

The mom posted a pic of the gun and identified it as her 15 year old son's Christmas Present (What Would Jesus Do).    In the 911 call the father told the dispatcher that the gun was unlocked in a bedroom drawer.    That sure makes the prosecutor's case stronger. 

They are going to have to have a change of venue.   These parents are the most hated people in Oakland County right now.    They've earned that. 

[chasfh]

On 12/3/2021 at 2:20 PM, Archie said:

I wouldn't be surprised if they turn themselves in with their lawyer.  I doubt they are actually running because everyone gets caught eventually.  Nothing they have done yet has been smart so maybe they are.

You watch a lot of cop shows, don't you?

[MichiganCardinal]

6 minutes ago, Kacie said:

You're scoffing at others for jumping to conclusions and biased against the prosecutor, but do you know all the evidence the prosecutor has?  The victims haven't even been buried yet.  The slippery slope stuff is a bit over the top.  From the very little information that has been released, this appears to be more than just innocent parents who didn't notice their weird kid had an issue.  They were near the Canadian border in a warehouse, but sure, they were planning on turning themselves in.  They're totally innocent, it's the big bad prosecutor being a meanie.  

I said within that I did not know if it would be found to be involuntary manslaughter, and closed with saying it would be intriguing to follow. I am not standing on some pedestal saying that the parents are innocent and should be released at once, I'm saying that I don't know if this has ever been done before (going after the parents of a child perpetrator criminally), and that there is a strong defense to be made on that basis alone, irrespective of the evidence one way or the other.

If they wanted to go to Canada, or Florida, or Mexico, or virtually anywhere in the World, they were free to do so until about 2:00pm on Friday when the judge signed the warrant. If they planned to, why would they have hung out a 30-minute drive from the jail where they now sit? Based on the defense attorney's statements in the parents arraignment, McDonald was intentionally deceitful with the public in order to incite a manhunt. At the very least, she chose to wait until Friday afternoon to announce charges she likely knew would be brought at least 24 hours prior. I'm not willing to give her office the benefit of the doubt.

[chasfh]

10 hours ago, Motown Bombers said:

Bellevue and Lafayette is the area where my grandparents first opened their business way back in the day. That is one desolate and rough area now. I can't imagine why they would hide out in Detroit unless their next move was to sneak into Canada. 

I can't imagine hardened gun nuts like them would want anything to do with f****ty liberal radical leftist Canada.

What I can imagine is that they were hiding out in a place they figured white people would be the least likely to be found, trying to buy time to arrange for a way to get to Florida.

Edited December 4, 2021 by chasfh

[chasfh]

On 12/2/2021 at 5:53 PM, Motor City Sonics said:

I am not going to post it here because its so graphic but I just saw a video of a Tucson cop shooting a man in a motorized wheelchair going into a Lowe;s............HE SHOOTS HIM 9 TIMES from less than 4 feet away.    Don't know what happened before the video but the cop tells the man not to go into the store but the man ignores him, so the cop EXECUTES HIM?    First thing he does when the man falls out of his wheelchair, dead, is handcuff him, but does not attempt or even pretend to offer medical aid.   You can find the video on your own, it's horrifying.  

What the hell is going on in this country?    

 

How bad do you have to be at your police officer job that you think the only way you can stop a 60-year-old confined to a wheelchair from going someplace is to empty your clip into him?

[Motor City Sonics]

Just now, chasfh said:

How bad do you have to be at your police officer job that you think the only way you can stop a 60-year-old confined to a wheelchair from going someplace is to empty your clip into him?

I guess, by Tucson standards,  that bad.  

[Motown Bombers]

7 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I can't imagine hardened gun nuts like them would want anything to do with f****ty liberal radical leftist Canada.

What I can imagine is that they were hiding out in a place they figured white people would be the least likely to be found, trying to buy time to arrange for a way to get to Florida.

They apparently know the owner of the building. Regardless, they would stick out like cue balls in that neighborhood. Not the place for white people to go unnoticed which is evident by the fact they were noticed. 

[chasfh]

Just now, Motown Bombers said:

They apparently know the owner of the building. Regardless, they would stick out like cue balls in that neighborhood. Not the place for white people to go unnoticed which is evident by the fact they were noticed. 

I would think if you're hiding out in a building, chances are you won't contrast against the people out and about in the neighborhood.

[Motown Bombers]

19 minutes ago, MichiganCardinal said:

I said within that I did not know if it would be found to be involuntary manslaughter, and closed with saying it would be intriguing to follow. I am not standing on some pedestal saying that the parents are innocent and should be released at once, I'm saying that I don't know if this has ever been done before (going after the parents of a child perpetrator criminally), and that there is a strong defense to be made on that basis alone, irrespective of the evidence one way or the other.

If they wanted to go to Canada, or Florida, or Mexico, or virtually anywhere in the World, they were free to do so until about 2:00pm on Friday when the judge signed the warrant. If they planned to, why would they have hung out a 30-minute drive from the jail where they now sit? Based on the defense attorney's statements in the parents arraignment, McDonald was intentionally deceitful with the public in order to incite a manhunt. At the very least, she chose to wait until Friday afternoon to announce charges she likely knew would be brought at least 24 hours prior. I'm not willing to give her office the benefit of the doubt.

I know I like to hang out in abandoned buildings in freezing weather in dangerous neighborhoods when I want to chill. The east side of Detroit is nowhere near Oxford or Pontiac and they still failed to show. There was someone sheltering them in that building. Probably waiting until they can make other arrangements to get out of the state. 

[Motown Bombers]

3 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I would think if you're hiding out in a building, chances are you won't contrast against the people out and about in the neighborhood.

People are going to look twice at a white person and the mother was actually spotted. 

[chasfh]

1 minute ago, Motown Bombers said:

People are going to look twice at a white person and the mother was actually spotted. 

Well, I didn't say it would be a smart move on their part.

[Kacie]

37 minutes ago, MichiganCardinal said:

I said within that I did not know if it would be found to be involuntary manslaughter, and closed with saying it would be intriguing to follow. I am not standing on some pedestal saying that the parents are innocent and should be released at once, I'm saying that I don't know if this has ever been done before (going after the parents of a child perpetrator criminally), and that there is a strong defense to be made on that basis alone, irrespective of the evidence one way or the other.

If they wanted to go to Canada, or Florida, or Mexico, or virtually anywhere in the World, they were free to do so until about 2:00pm on Friday when the judge signed the warrant. If they planned to, why would they have hung out a 30-minute drive from the jail where they now sit? Based on the defense attorney's statements in the parents arraignment, McDonald was intentionally deceitful with the public in order to incite a manhunt. At the very least, she chose to wait until Friday afternoon to announce charges she likely knew would be brought at least 24 hours prior. I'm not willing to give her office the benefit of the doubt.

We get it, you hate prosecutors.  You're saying that the same people who would buy their deranged kid a gun, tell him not to get caught searching for ammunition at school and wanted to be grabbed by the pussy by Trump were going to make a well thought out escape plan in less than a day?  Yeah, they were totally planning on turning themselves in.  Can't believe you're still trying to play that card.  

If the kid had an alcohol problem and they bought him a case of beer and a fifth and handed him the keys to the car and he killed 4 kids in an accident, wouldn't the parents face charges in that case?  I get there isn't precedent in regards to murder, but I don't really see how this is much different.  Bartenders have been charged for serving visibly drunk patrons and not stopping them from driving.

[Motown Bombers]

The shooting happened Tuesday. Tuesday night, Wednesday night, Thursday night, they stay near Oxford. Friday night, when they are formally charged, they decide to spend the night on the east side of Detroit nowhere near Oxford or the jail they needed to turn themselves in on Pontiac. It's also at this time they disable their phones to avoid being tracked. 

[Archie]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

How bad do you have to be at your police officer job that you think the only way you can stop a 60-year-old confined to a wheelchair from going someplace is to empty your clip into him?

What's a clip?

[oblong]

The area that building is in has a lot of hipster types living in the vicinity. They would not have stood out by virtue of being white.  It’s not far from Indian and west village. It’s for its own name of island view. 

[MichiganCardinal]

2 hours ago, Kacie said:

We get it, you hate prosecutors.  You're saying that the same people who would buy their deranged kid a gun, tell him not to get caught searching for ammunition at school and wanted to be grabbed by the pussy by Trump were going to make a well thought out escape plan in less than a day?  Yeah, they were totally planning on turning themselves in.  Can't believe you're still trying to play that card.  

If the kid had an alcohol problem and they bought him a case of beer and a fifth and handed him the keys to the car and he killed 4 kids in an accident, wouldn't the parents face charges in that case?  I get there isn't precedent in regards to murder, but I don't really see how this is much different.  Bartenders have been charged for serving visibly drunk patrons and not stopping them from driving.

Hate is very strong. I definitely have an inherent distrust though. Per the arraignment (I can’t find a recording or direct quote), their attorney was in constant contact with the clients throughout Thursday, and planned to meet them at 52-3 Court at 7:30am Saturday. Yes I believe that.

If the parent or bartender provided a minor with alcohol they’re guilty of a crime notwithstanding what else happened. Different. Here, the parents were not guilty of a crime (or at least have not been charged) except that their kid took the gun out of the home and did what he did.

[MichiganCardinal]

2 hours ago, Motown Bombers said:

The shooting happened Tuesday. Tuesday night, Wednesday night, Thursday night, they stay near Oxford. Friday night, when they are formally charged, they decide to spend the night on the east side of Detroit nowhere near Oxford or the jail they needed to turn themselves in on Pontiac. It's also at this time they disable their phones to avoid being tracked. 

They didn’t disable their phones, my understanding is that it was taken in the search warrant.

I haven’t seen anything that says they were near Oxford for three nights, but I could be wrong on that I’m at a bar for the UM game and didn’t look it up. Either way, they couldn’t be home while a search warrant was executed and the media was an absolute circus, let alone the death threats they were getting.

Their attorney said in open court that they were going to turn themselves in the next day at 7:30am. Shannon Smith is not going to put her career on the line for these two.

[pfife]

why does it matter when they say they were going to turn themselves in?

the judge seemed to agree they were flight risks but I agree that the legal proceedings should hinge on whether smith would ruin her career with the tactical decisions, as the constitution states

[Kacie]

10 hours ago, MichiganCardinal said:

Hate is very strong. I definitely have an inherent distrust though. Per the arraignment (I can’t find a recording or direct quote), their attorney was in constant contact with the clients throughout Thursday, and planned to meet them at 52-3 Court at 7:30am Saturday. Yes I believe that.

If the parent or bartender provided a minor with alcohol they’re guilty of a crime notwithstanding what else happened. Different. Here, the parents were not guilty of a crime (or at least have not been charged) except that their kid took the gun out of the home and did what he did.

Again, you're speculating to fit your narrative.  You don't know happened, if the kid "took the gun" or was given the gun and what all preceded the shooting. How many parents upon hearing of a school shooting, would call the police and be like, yep, that sounds like my kid?  The parents were obviously aware.

If they were staying at friends or relatives homes or at a hotel, it might be plausible that they weren't planning to flee.  

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/locked-sullen-crumbley-family-showing-003835309.html

[MichiganCardinal]

9 hours ago, pfife said:

why does it matter when they say they were going to turn themselves in?

the judge seemed to agree they were flight risks but I agree that the legal proceedings should hinge on whether smith would ruin her career with the tactical decisions, as the constitution states

According to what Smith stated at the arraignment, McDonald avoided contact throughout Thursday. Then, at 3:00, while Smith is in an unrelated trial, she announces charges and expects the parents to be able to teleport to Pontiac to be arraigned by 4:00pm, without any prior notification. When they can't do that (likely because their attorney didn't know it), McDonald goes and claims they are running and that they are not talking to their attorney, neither of which are true.

They speak with their attorney and agree to meet at 7:30am at Novi District Court to turn themselves in and be arraigned, which was then relayed to the prosecutor. At that point, the parents options were to either turn themselves in immediately and spend the night in jail waiting to be arraigned from the jail, or to sleep one more night where they were and appear presentable in an arraignment. In any other case, no one would have batted an eye at them choosing the latter.

The Judge did agree with the prosecutor. I disagree with the ruling, and can't help but believe it was swayed - at least in part - due to the media perception spun by McDonald.

[MichiganCardinal]

1 hour ago, Kacie said:

Again, you're speculating to fit your narrative.  You don't know happened, if the kid "took the gun" or was given the gun and what all preceded the shooting. How many parents upon hearing of a school shooting, would call the police and be like, yep, that sounds like my kid?  The parents were obviously aware.

If they were staying at friends or relatives homes or at a hotel, it might be plausible that they weren't planning to flee.  

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/locked-sullen-crumbley-family-showing-003835309.html

To a certain degree, everything has to be speculation based on what is known right now because there hasn't been a trial, and won't be one for a while. To answer your question, probably not many parents would, but I don't know that the father calling the police and reporting his gun missing, and being concerned that his son was the shooter, creates the criminal liability of involuntary manslaughter.

They were staying at a friend's art studio, probably trying to keep the media circus off of their friends and relatives too.

[casimir]

21 minutes ago, MichiganCardinal said:

They were staying at a friend's art studio, probably trying to keep the media circus off of their friends and relatives too.

There were probably common sense ways for the "parents" (if one can call them that) to avoid the media circus that would have also avoided the death and turmoil that we saw this week, but I'm probably just speculating here.

[Archie]

From the beginning the Prosecutor has been using the media for her benefit.  Its common for people with charges pending to be allowed to turn themselves in if if its set up with their lawyer and prosecutor.  It happens all the time and isn't reported in the media.  It sounds like the lack of communication is on the prosecutor. Both the defense attorneys and the OCSD have stated this.  Then it was blown out of proportion with the BOLO that was publicly communicated like the parents were public enemy number one.  The parents are more of a danger to themselves than anyone else at this point.  It doesn't really matter at this point now they are in jail.  Their bail has been set extremely high and the defense might be able to get it lowered.  

I expect the trial for the kid will be easy to prosecute and the only question is how long of a sentence he could get based on his age.  Mental illness could be a defense since he admitted to "hearing voices" before the shooting.  The trial for the parents will be much more interesting and I think the Prosecutor will have trouble making a case.  Time will tell.

[MichiganCardinal]

1 minute ago, casimir said:

There were probably common sense ways for the "parents" (if one can call them that) to avoid the media circus that would have also avoided the death and turmoil that we saw this week, but I'm probably just speculating here.

I don't think the parents are blameless. They should live with the full guilt of what their son did, their role in it, and what their role could have been in preventing it, for the rest of their lives. They are not good people and they are not good parents.

But they still deserve their day in court.

[MichiganCardinal]

1 minute ago, Archie said:

I expect the trial for the kid will be easy to prosecute and the only question is how long of a sentence he could get based on his age.  Mental illness could be a defense since he admitted to "hearing voices" before the shooting.  The trial for the parents will be much more interesting and I think the Prosecutor will have trouble making a case.  Time will tell.

The child will almost certainly receive a life sentence. The only thing I could see changing that is if the prosecutor will offer a small carrot (like life with the possibility of parole instead of without the possibility) to the child in exchange for testimony against the parents.