LOCKOUT '22: When will we see baseball again?

[davidsb623]

2 minutes ago, Longgone said:

Unfortunately, none of them are covered by the agreement.

Very true.  Should it be though?  Should the MLBPA umbrella protect minor league players also??  I am not aware of a association for minor leaguers.

[gehringer_2]

2 hours ago, davidsb623 said:

Very true.  Should it be though?  Should the MLBPA umbrella protect minor league players also??  I am not aware of a association for minor leaguers.

I don't know how you square that circle. MLBPA can't give MiLB players a voice in their union (i.e. a vote) because they would immediately lose control of it by the numbers. But without that voice, I'm never going to expect more than a smattering of guys who hit it big to care much about the guys they've left behind. Plus most of the guys in the majors who are at the minimum bouncing back and forth to AAA and for whom MiLB issues are still front and center, are not often going to stand as unions reps, believing that is one more strike against them with the ownership that can ship them out at any time.

[HeyAbbott]

I am sympathetic toward the players making league minimum when such a huge pot of money sloshes around. If any of the numbers that are out there are that I have seen are remotely true, there is a structural financial imbalance that has developed between the players and the owners.  A larger share of the revenue should go toward the players. I'd feel a lot better about the whole thing if the league minimum were closer at least 800,000, if not 1 million.

The reason that there are signing bonuses for high rated draft picks is that minor league players make nothing. The numbers I have seen are  $15k for AAA, $9.4k for AA, and 6k for single A.  The minor leagues are another matter, but at least get the lower tier of MLB players a substantially higher minimum.

https://sport-net.org/who-qualifies-for-mlb-minimum-salary-2/

 

[IdahoBert]

I think this whole thing could drag out for quite a while. 

[romad1]

It should not end until Manfred is gone or in jail

[Sports_Freak]

1 hour ago, HeyAbbott said:

I am sympathetic toward the players making league minimum when such a huge pot of money sloshes around. If any of the numbers that are out there are that I have seen are remotely true, there is a structural financial imbalance that has developed between the players and the owners.  A larger share of the revenue should go toward the players. I'd feel a lot better about the whole thing if the league minimum were closer at least 800,000, if not 1 million.

The reason that there are signing bonuses for high rated draft picks is that minor league players make nothing. The numbers I have seen are  $15k for AAA, $9.4k for AA, and 6k for single A.  The minor leagues are another matter, but at least get the lower tier of MLB players a substantially higher minimum.

https://sport-net.org/who-qualifies-for-mlb-minimum-salary-2/

 

Fire all the players, bring in scabs and lower prices. There's a lot of players out there who would play for a few hundred grand a year.

[Tiger337]

19 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said:

Fire all the players, bring in scabs and lower prices. There's a lot of players out there who would play for a few hundred grand a year.

Nobody would want to watch them though.  

Edited December 2, 2021 by Tiger337

[romad1]

Rob goddamn Manfred putting juiced balls in "highly important" games played by the preferred franchises and dud balls in games played by the loser teams (e.g., the AL central) tells you this maniac has got to go.  Why do the Tigers even bother to play unless this is all wrestling and anyone who pays for a ticket is a mark?

[Motor City Sonics]

It's 6:33pm.   Any movement yet? 

[romad1]

I mean, that's fraud. 

If I were any player injured for any kind of play related to the juiced balls, I would get a lawyer and sue Manfred's ass.

[sabretooth]

I have an interest as a fan in watching baseball, and having a system that self-perpetuates with a reasonable amount of competitiveness.  If they harden the existing luxury tax system into more of a true salary cap, I guess I don't really care.

I feel kind of connected to the players and to the Tigers and ownership (as well as all of the MLB and MiLB) in the broadest "corporate" sense - i.e., we share a common interest.  Beyond that, I don't care at all how the spoils are split up.

The vast majority of this discussion seems to involve the projection of posters' individual preference to identify with highly skilled non-management personnel vs. what is perceived to be largely unskilled management (in AAs case, I can see why one would feel this way 😉).  I am not criticizing that attitude, but it is not one that I have an personal investment in one way or another.  I don't really give a tinker's damn about the sharing of revenues between owners and players, or who is to blame, or the share of $$ among players. 

My entire interest as a fan is to keep the game on the field, and in reasonably good shape from a competitiveness standpoint, though I think salary caps can be overdone.  Beyond that, the whole debate is too academic or personalistic to hold my interest.

[mtutiger]

22 minutes ago, romad1 said:

Rob goddamn Manfred putting juiced balls in "highly important" games played by the preferred franchises and dud balls in games played by the loser teams (e.g., the AL central) tells you this maniac has got to go.  Why do the Tigers even bother to play unless this is all wrestling and anyone who pays for a ticket is a mark?

Maybe Willi Castro can file a class-action lawsuit...

[romad1]

2 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Maybe Willi Castro can file a class-action lawsuit...

Spencer Turnbull and any other pitcher injured makes much more sense.

[Motor City Sonics]

And I thought Goodell and David Stern were bad................

[romad1]

3 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said:

And I thought Goodell and David Stern were bad................

The NFL has a tiered franchise system as well.  I don't follow the NBA as closely.  I assume its as bad.  Screw any league management that allows that. 

[Longgone]

31 minutes ago, sabretooth said:

I have an interest as a fan in watching baseball, and having a system that self-perpetuates with a reasonable amount of competitiveness.  If they harden the existing luxury tax system into more of a true salary cap, I guess I don't really care.

I feel kind of connected to the players and to the Tigers and ownership (as well as all of the MLB and MiLB) in the broadest "corporate" sense - i.e., we share a common interest.  Beyond that, I don't care at all how the spoils are split up.

The vast majority of this discussion seems to involve the projection of posters' individual preference to identify with highly skilled non-management personnel vs. what is perceived to be largely unskilled management (in AAs case, I can see why one would feel this way 😉).  I am not criticizing that attitude, but it is not one that I have an personal investment in one way or another.  I don't really give a tinker's damn about the sharing of revenues between owners and players, or who is to blame, or the share of $$ among players. 

My entire interest as a fan is to keep the game on the field, and in reasonably good shape from a competitiveness standpoint, though I think salary caps can be overdone.  Beyond that, the whole debate is too academic or personalistic to hold my interest.

The players have consistently been adamantly opposed to ay type of hard cap, and the owners seem well beyond proposing one at this point. I don't see that being an issue for this negotiation.

[mtutiger]

21 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said:

And I thought Goodell and David Stern were bad................

Not to mention Bud Selig... somehow Manfred is worse!

[mtutiger]

 

[gehringer_2]

34 minutes ago, Longgone said:

The players have consistently been adamantly opposed to ay type of hard cap, and the owners seem well beyond proposing one at this point. I don't see that being an issue for this negotiation.

The luxury tax works well enough for the owners purposes they shouldn't feel the need to modify it.  The luxury tax is a de facto cap, it just has a squishy front end and two year grace period to get back under.  To my recollection, no one has ever tirggered the draft pick penalty, so you can say the luxury tax for all intents and purposes is hard cap at that violation level (~$40M for 3 yrs)

Edited December 3, 2021 by gehringer_2

[oblong]

2 hours ago, Sports_Freak said:

Fire all the players, bring in scabs and lower prices. There's a lot of players out there who would play for a few hundred grand a year.

Nobody would watch it and TV wouldn’t pay to broadcast it at the rates they do now and nobody wins. 

[mtutiger]

3 minutes ago, oblong said:

Nobody would watch it and TV wouldn’t pay to broadcast it at the rates they do now and nobody wins. 

One thing is for certain, though... they'd bring in the scabs and still charge the same rates for tickets, beer, merchandise, etc.

[CMRivdogs]

3 hours ago, Sports_Freak said:

Fire all the players, bring in scabs and lower prices. There's a lot of players out there who would play for a few hundred grand a year.

Sounds a lot like Independent League stuff...

[Sports_Freak]

1 hour ago, oblong said:

Nobody would watch it and TV wouldn’t pay to broadcast it at the rates they do now and nobody wins. 

Yeah, I'm just a cynical old man who can't understand how players like Max can get 1.5 million dollars per start. Back in the day......

[Motor City Sonics]

Just televise Mud Hens games.   We get to see the kids.    

[oblong]

For me it’s not about sympathy. It’s a business discussion.  It’s a $9 Billion enterprise.  I simply don’t buy into any thought that players should just be grateful for whatever the owners throws their way. Fans don’t watch the owners.  The players are the product and the service being sold. They are not being selfish or greedy or spoiled. They want and deserve their fair share for the $9 billion enterprise. The owners didn’t build or create MLB. They were already rich and bought into it as franchise owners for the investment and prestige. Don’t act like they toiled and worked 80 hours a week to make it work. The vast majority of them, if not all of them, have other companies to run and baseball is just a hobby and tax convenience.