Tenacious D Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 I bought into the Barnhart hype. Foolish me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 12 minutes ago, Tenacious D said: Perez is money. Might have something there. Fewer HRs coming at AA but XBH, walk and K rate all good so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 (edited) I will say I am open to the idea that he is a plus behind the dish as a game caller and that maybe his influence is a factor in the success of some of our starters and relievers. But globally, I dont know how much of a downgrade having Haase starting and Ali Sanchez or Dustin Garneau up here backing up would be at this point given the lack of offense. Edited June 23, 2022 by mtutiger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 5 minutes ago, Tenacious D said: I bought into the Barnhart hype. Foolish me. If he played to his career averages, he would have been fine. People were saying even he hit the way he usually does, he'd still suck which I didn't agree with. This year, he has been far below his expectation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motor City Sonics Posted June 23, 2022 Author Share Posted June 23, 2022 3 minutes ago, Tenacious D said: I bought into the Barnhart hype. Foolish me. We got him for a player who we all feel has almost no shot of even making it to the majors. he was not even in our Top 30 prospects, was he? Nick Quintana is Still in A ball at 24 and he's hitting .240 with 5 HR in 200 AB.........with 49Ks. That should have been a sign for what Cincy thought of him. We believe the hype because we want to. Like believing Craig Paquette was gonna be good or the amazing pitching prowess of Jose Paniagua That's what Al is........he's like Randy Smith talking up scrub players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenacious D Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 2 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said: We got him for a player who we all feel has almost no shot of even making it to the majors. he was not even in our Top 30 prospects, was he? Nick Quintana is Still in A ball at 24 and he's hitting .240 with 5 HR in 200 AB.........with 49Ks. That should have been a sign for what Cincy thought of him. We believe the hype because we want to. Like believing Craig Paquette was gonna be good or the amazing pitching prowess of Jose Paniagua That's what Al is........he's like Randy Smith talking up scrub players. Don’t get me started on Jermaine Clark and Travis Chapman. Thought we had solved our infield woes with both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 1 minute ago, mtutiger said: I will say I am open to the idea that he is a plus behind the dish as a game caller and that maybe his influence is a factor in the success of some of our starters and relievers. But globally, I dont know how much of a downgrade having Haase starting and Ali Sanchez or Dustin Garneau up here backing up would be at this point given the lack of offense. there is probably no level of defensive contribution enough to make up for an OPS+ in the 50s or 60s. You can't just give away 11% of your team PAs before the game even starts. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 Well, if you’re going to fold in the ninth to lose the game, you might as well do it quickly, I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motor City Sonics Posted June 23, 2022 Author Share Posted June 23, 2022 (edited) I feel like Al got let off the hook a tiny bit because they won 2 games in a row off the energy of Riley Greene, but Riley Greene was really his last card, wasn't it. He has no other cards to really play. They go to Boston, and to no one's surprise, get their arses handed to them. Much needed day off, a day that axes need to start swinging, but hey, we're the official pizza of the NFL now, so all is good. Edited June 23, 2022 by Motor City Sonics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 Just now, Motor City Sonics said: I feel like Al got let off the hook a tiny bit because they won 2 games in a row off the energy of Riley Greene, but Riley Green was really his last card, wasn't it. He has no other cards to really play. They go to Boston, and to no one's surprise, get their arses handed to them. Much needed day off, a day that axes need to start swinging, but hey, we're the official pizza of the NFL now, so all is good. I'm probably reading into it too much, but he could have easily said "no comment" to Ken Rosenthal. And he didn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 7 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: there is probably no level of defensive contribution enough to make up for an OPS+ in the 50s or 60s. You can't just give away 11% of your team PAs before the game even starts. Yeah, I can't quantify it, but it doesn't feel justifiable at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 Just now, Motor City Sonics said: Riley Green was really his last card, wasn't it. He has no other cards to really play. well, Meadows apparently has long COVID, Baddoo is one for his last 8. Manning still isn't throwing off a mound, for all intents and purposes ERod has fallen off the edge of the world. That leaves Pineda. Feel the excitement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 7 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: If he played to his career averages, he would have been fine. People were saying even he hit the way he usually does, he'd still suck which I didn't agree with. This year, he has been far below his expectation. Nobody may have expected Barnhart to be at -0.3 fWAR right now, but last year was his career year as a 30-year-old catcher: 1.2 fWAR. Various projection models had him coming in at 0.6 and 0.8 this year. YMMV, but I don’t necessarily believe that’s worth seven and a half bills. The wild card here, of course, is whether Barnhart is earning his keep through superior “handling of the pitching staff”. The aggregation of the various defensive stats aren’t all that kind to him, but as for whether he is spurring better incremental performance by his pitchers when he’s behind the plate versus Haase or Garneau is hard to either prove or disprove. FWIW, his CERA and Haase’s are practically identical, and both are half a run worse than Garneau, although small sample size applies there. Bottom line: unless Barnhart has some kind of second half surge, this is going to go down as a failed sign. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motor City Sonics Posted June 23, 2022 Author Share Posted June 23, 2022 1 minute ago, gehringer_2 said: well, Meadows apparently has long COVID, Baddoo is one for his last 8. Manning still isn't throwing off a mound, for all intents and purposes ERod has fallen off the edge of the world. That leaves Pineda. Feel the excitement. Those aren't really cards though. We know what all those guys really are. Riley's the last real hope for the foreseeable future. Even if he is good, it wouldn't be enough to offset all the bad picks, trades and signings. Again, I keep thinking about 1988-2005. I remember in 2000 when the Tigers won a game later in the season to get to within a game of .500 and Todd Jones saved it and held up his finger as in "1 more"............like that was something to celebrate, being 65-65. If this is a mirror of 1988-2005, we're only in the year 1995 or 1996 - we would have so much further to go. The way things look right now, we're not a year away. That's the bullshit they feed us, We're at least 3 years away, if almost everything goes right. One of our 4 teams just has to break this streak of shit. My god, it might actually be the fucking Lions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdog Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 I was at the game tonight. The feeling was more depression than anger. Once they couldn’t tack on any runs early, you knew the Red Sox would grind Skubal down. Big Joe is finally a good pitcher just in time for a trade lol. They need so much help in the lineup and have so little to trade. Reyes and castro are once again leveling off. I don’t know man I just want a competent management team that can properly value players both on their team and throughout the league. They thought this roster would be competitive and it’s men vs boys against good teams. And the Red Sox are just ok. We are overmatched. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 9 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said: Those aren't really cards though. We know what all those guys really are. Riley's the last real hope for the foreseeable future. Even if he is good, it wouldn't be enough to offset all the bad picks, trades and signings. Again, I keep thinking about 1988-2005. I remember in 2000 when the Tigers won a game later in the season to get to within a game of .500 and Todd Jones saved it and held up his finger as in "1 more"............like that was something to celebrate, being 65-65. If this is a mirror of 1988-2005, we're only in the year 1995 or 1996 - we would have so much further to go. The way things look right now, we're not a year away. That's the bullshit they feed us, We're at least 3 years away, if almost everything goes right. One of our 4 teams just has to break this streak of shit. My god, it might actually be the fucking Lions. I dont think the situation is as dire as the mid 1990s right now... but they need to replace the GM regardless. I really believe a good one could get this thing turned around within a couple of years. But the owner has, to date, shown little willingness to part with Al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 9 minutes ago, chasfh said: Nobody may have expected Barnhart to be at -0.3 fWAR right now, but last year was his career year as a 30-year-old catcher: 1.2 fWAR. Various projection models had him coming in at 0.6 and 0.8 this year. YMMV, but I don’t necessarily believe that’s worth seven and a half bills. The wild card here, of course, is whether Barnhart is earning his keep through superior “handling of the pitching staff”. The aggregation of the various defensive stats aren’t all that kind to him, but as for whether he is spurring better incremental performance by his pitchers when he’s behind the plate versus Haase or Garneau is hard to either prove or disprove. FWIW, his CERA and Haase’s are practically identical, and both are half a run worse than Garneau, although small sample size applies there. Bottom line: unless Barnhart has some kind of second half surge, this is going to go down as a failed sign. Barnhart's career year was 3.6 in 2017. It really was a career year as he has never come close to that again. However, I feel like catcher WAR is not very meaningful as catchers typically don't hit much and catcher defensive statistics are not very useful. Anyway, if he had a .685 OPS this year, we wouldn't be having this discussion. We'd be blaming other players. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyMarsh Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 6 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said: Those aren't really cards though. We know what all those guys really are. Riley's the last real hope for the foreseeable future. Even if he is good, it wouldn't be enough to offset all the bad picks, trades and signings. Again, I keep thinking about 1988-2005. I remember in 2000 when the Tigers won a game later in the season to get to within a game of .500 and Todd Jones saved it and held up his finger as in "1 more"............like that was something to celebrate, being 65-65. If this is a mirror of 1988-2005, we're only in the year 1995 or 1996 - we would have so much further to go. The way things look right now, we're not a year away. That's the bullshit they feed us, We're at least 3 years away, if almost everything goes right. One of our 4 teams just has to break this streak of shit. My god, it might actually be the fucking Lions. I don't follow the Red Wings closely but it seems like they are on the right track and have a proven GM at the helm too so they may be the best bet. The Pistons appear to have the superstar needed in the NBA along with some other things going for them so they may be next in line. I'd put the Lions right there as well since I believe in their GM/Coach and they do have some talent but ultimately it will depend on finding that QB whether it be Goff having a resurgence or somewhere else. That leaves the Tigers in a distant 4th. Even if Greene and Tork turn into the stars we hope they still just have so many holes it's hard to see them being a real threat any time soon. They will need a ton of things to go right in the near future for that to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 13 minutes ago, chasfh said: Nobody may have expected Barnhart to be at -0.3 fWAR right now, but last year was his career year as a 30-year-old catcher: 1.2 fWAR. Various projection models had him coming in at 0.6 and 0.8 this year. YMMV, but I don’t necessarily believe that’s worth seven and a half bills. The wild card here, of course, is whether Barnhart is earning his keep through superior “handling of the pitching staff”. The aggregation of the various defensive stats aren’t all that kind to him, but as for whether he is spurring better incremental performance by his pitchers when he’s behind the plate versus Haase or Garneau is hard to either prove or disprove. FWIW, his CERA and Haase’s are practically identical, and both are half a run worse than Garneau, although small sample size applies there. Bottom line: unless Barnhart has some kind of second half surge, this is going to go down as a failed sign. failed trade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 Just now, mtutiger said: I dont think the situation is as dire as the mid 1990s right now... but they need to replace the GM regardless. I really believe a good one could get this thing turned around within a couple of years. But the owner has, to date, shown little willingness to part with Al. The early 90s was actually a fun team with Tettleton, Phillips and Fielder leading a strong offense. Starting in '94, their pitching was so bad, that they were just hopeless. They also had no minor league system and drafted horribly. As bad as it is now, I think they are in better shape now than they were thern. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 2 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said: I don't follow the Red Wings closely but it seems like they are on the right track and have a proven GM at the helm too so they may be the best bet. The Pistons appear to have the superstar needed in the NBA along with some other things going for them so they may be next in line. I'd put the Lions right there as well since I believe in their GM/Coach and they do have some talent but ultimately it will depend on finding that QB whether it be Goff having a resurgence or somewhere else. That leaves the Tigers in a distant 4th. Even if Greene and Tork turn into the stars we hope they still just have so many holes it's hard to see them being a real threat any time soon. They will need a ton of things to go right in the near future for that to happen. i have as much faith in troy weaver as al avila. both were good at tanking and getting top picks, but neither has shown good asset management. at least avila signed a proven coach and has reportedly set up a more forwars thinking front office. weaver keeps duane casey around for god's sake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 1 minute ago, Tiger337 said: The early 90s was actually a fun team with Tettleton, Phillips and Fielder leading a strong offense. Starting in '94, their pitching was so bad, that they were just hopeless. They also had no minor league system and drafted horribly. As bad as it is now, I think they are in better shape now than they were thern. mike moore! tim belcher! that one year jeff robinson was ok! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 6 minutes ago, buddha said: failed trade. I stand corrected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: The early 90s was actually a fun team with Tettleton, Phillips and Fielder leading a strong offense. Starting in '94, their pitching was so bad, that they were just hopeless. They also had no minor league system and drafted horribly. As bad as it is now, I think they are in better shape now than they were thern. People live in the here and the now... and while the here and the now sucks, it's just not as bad as the Randy Smith era. That said, they need to replace the GM. Edited June 23, 2022 by mtutiger 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 Just now, chasfh said: I stand corrected. i mean, it was for nick quintana, another great al avila second round pick who is now 24 in A ball. heck, as bad as barnhart has been, that might be one of avila's better trades! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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