Miggy contract the WORST in MLB history

[SoCalTiger]

Jordan Zimmerman 

Mike Pelfry

and a relief pitcher I think named Lowe  all in one off season ! The tri fecta  of bad. 

[RandyMarsh]

Between Miggy,  Victor's second contract and Zimm we spent damn near a half billion dollars for close to or negative WAR. Just a laughably bad ROI.

[KL2]

14 hours ago, RandyMarsh said:

The thing that made the Miggy contract so bad aside from his performance of course was the timing, they didn't need to give it to him, they still had him under control for 2 more seasons. Why not wait a year or even wait till free agency to see if he shown any chinks in the armor

This thinking has always been wrong from the the moment it was suggested after he got the contract. 

It completely ignores a lot of stuff. Namly that Miggy was coming off very good seasons and there was no reason to believe he would just crap out. It ignores the fact that as players get closer to free agency they are less likely to stay the Tigers couldn't risk to lose a Triple Crown winner. It also ingores that Trout's contract was on the horizon and the Tigers might have had to pay even more if the waited. 

The whole, why now thing is all hindsight, completely ignores how contract works and other factors at play at the time. 

Now, you can argue whether extending a 31-year-old was right or wrong. But the whole they could have waited just isn't true. It was either then or not at all. 

Edited September 22, 2022 by KL2

[RandyMarsh]

11 minutes ago, KL2 said:

This thinking has always been wrong from the the moment it was suggested after he got the contract. 

It completely ignores a lot of stuff. Namly that Miggy was coming off very good seasons and there was no reason to believe he would just crap out. It ignores the fact that as players get closer to free agency they are less likely to stay the Tigers couldn't risk to lose a Triple Crown winner. It also ingores that Trout's contract was on the horizon and the Tigers might have had to pay even more if the waited. 

The whole, why now thing is all hindsight, completely ignores how contract works and other factors at play at the time. 

Now, you can argue whether extending a 31-year-old was right or wrong. But the whole they could have waited just isn't true. It was either then or not at all. 

Why was it then or not at all? Is it illegal to sign a guy a year from FA or during FA? His stock wasn't going to go up with another great year, his value was at its peak you saved no money by doing it early. You took on all of the risk without taking any sorta discount. 

[Motown Bombers]

The Tigers signed him to an extension when he first came over from Florida two years before he would have been a free agent. They got a bargain because they had leverage. I'm not sure it was a zero sum proposition, by the odds of signing him go down the closer he gets to free agency. They signed Verlander two years early and didn't with Scherzer and Scherzer left. 

[RandyMarsh]

With the albatrosses of Pujols and Prince Fielders contract fresh on the mind of MLB owners I just have a hard time believing that even if Cabrera went to FA that if we offered him 250 million that any team wouldve topped that but I do admit that is just speculation.

To me you sign guys two years out when they are in their early to mid 20s like they did the first time they did with Miggy but you're playing with fire when doing it with guys in their 30s and unfortunately the Tigers got burned. 

I will soften my original stance though and say that while I disagreed with the timing even at the time, but if you wanted to make sure there was no way you lose him even if that means possibly overpaying or looking foolish at the end of the deal then it probably was best to do it then and not wait and risk Miggy getting frustrated kinda like Max did. 

Edited September 22, 2022 by RandyMarsh

[Warning Track Power]

On 9/21/2022 at 1:25 PM, 1984Echoes said:

This was the team-killer, right here.

If Miggy's contract did indeed cause this ripple effect...

then, yeah, an argument could be made...

I believe it was the other way around, Miggy's contract came after Sherzer spurned Illitch.

 

[oblong]

11 hours ago, Warning Track Power said:

I believe it was the other way around, Miggy's contract came after Sherzer spurned Illitch.

 

It was around the same time.  Both happened in spring training 2014 but I don't recall which came first.

 

 

[Warning Track Power]

Miggy came right after.

 

[chasfh]

So, I took a look at all the Hall of Famers who went in as hitters, not pitchers, and I wanted to know who had the worst final seven years of their career going in. Since these guys went in for hitting, instead of using WAR, which includes defense, I am going to use offensive WAR (oWAR), since it contemplates only the offense part.

Here are the ten worst seven-year offensive swan songs by a hitter before going into the Hall:

Ray Schalk is the worst with a mere 1.7 oWAR for his entire final seven years, but he was definitely not known for his hitting, so really, no surprise.

Al Simmons did go in for his hitting, but it was definitely for his first eleven seasons, and oh, what a stretch that was. He'd had almost 2,200 hits already, 240 of which were home runs, but his batting average is what really stood out: after his eleventh season, he was standing at .354 lifetime. He was considered to have had a puncher's chance at Ty Cobb's lifetime mark.

But then, starting with his 14th season, he was getting old, and he started getting hurt a lot, and he limped through that final seven-year period with a .278/.328/.431 line across 1,600 PA, resulting in an oWAR of 3.0.

I bring this up because for the past six seasons, Miggy, in a little more than 2,400 plate appearances, has slashed .262/.329/.386, which results in an oWAR of -0.2. So, unless he has a Pujols-like renaissance next season, Miggy is certain to walk backwards into the Hall with the worst final seven years of any Hall of Fame hitter ever—worse even than non-hitter Ray Schalk.

 

[Tenacious D]

5 hours ago, chasfh said:

So, I took a look at all the Hall of Famers who went in as hitters, not pitchers, and I wanted to know who had the worst final seven years of their career going in. Since these guys went in for hitting, instead of using WAR, which includes defense, I am going to use offensive WAR (oWAR), since it contemplates only the offense part.

Here are the ten worst seven-year offensive swan songs by a hitter before going into the Hall:

Ray Schalk is the worst with a mere 1.7 oWAR for his entire final seven years, but he was definitely not known for his hitting, so really, no surprise.

Al Simmons did go in for his hitting, but it was definitely for his first eleven seasons, and oh, what a stretch that was. He'd had almost 2,200 hits already, 240 of which were home runs, but his batting average is what really stood out: after his eleventh season, he was standing at .354 lifetime. He was considered to have had a puncher's chance at Ty Cobb's lifetime mark.

But then, starting with his 14th season, he was getting old, and he started getting hurt a lot, and he limped through that final seven-year period with a .278/.328/.431 line across 1,600 PA, resulting in an oWAR of 3.0.

I bring this up because for the past six seasons, Miggy, in a little more than 2,400 plate appearances, has slashed .262/.329/.386, which results in an oWAR of -0.2. So, unless he has a Pujols-like renaissance next season, Miggy is certain to walk backwards into the Hall with the worst final seven years of any Hall of Fame hitter ever—worse even than non-hitter Ray Schalk.

 

Really expected to see Tram on that list.  He kind of limped to the finish line.

[oblong]

Tram was beset by injuries beginning in 1988. But he still was a decent player when he did play.  Made the ASG in ‘90. 

[RandyMarsh]

5 hours ago, chasfh said:

So, I took a look at all the Hall of Famers who went in as hitters, not pitchers, and I wanted to know who had the worst final seven years of their career going in. Since these guys went in for hitting, instead of using WAR, which includes defense, I am going to use offensive WAR (oWAR), since it contemplates only the offense part.

Here are the ten worst seven-year offensive swan songs by a hitter before going into the Hall:

Ray Schalk is the worst with a mere 1.7 oWAR for his entire final seven years, but he was definitely not known for his hitting, so really, no surprise.

Al Simmons did go in for his hitting, but it was definitely for his first eleven seasons, and oh, what a stretch that was. He'd had almost 2,200 hits already, 240 of which were home runs, but his batting average is what really stood out: after his eleventh season, he was standing at .354 lifetime. He was considered to have had a puncher's chance at Ty Cobb's lifetime mark.

But then, starting with his 14th season, he was getting old, and he started getting hurt a lot, and he limped through that final seven-year period with a .278/.328/.431 line across 1,600 PA, resulting in an oWAR of 3.0.

I bring this up because for the past six seasons, Miggy, in a little more than 2,400 plate appearances, has slashed .262/.329/.386, which results in an oWAR of -0.2. So, unless he has a Pujols-like renaissance next season, Miggy is certain to walk backwards into the Hall with the worst final seven years of any Hall of Fame hitter ever—worse even than non-hitter Ray Schalk.

 

Pujols had his great year this year but I think he was even worse than Miggy the previous 6 so I wonder if his is actually worse?

[chasfh]

For the same six seasons preceding his last one, Pujols stood at -0.1 oWAR. He will go into the Hall with +2.0 oWAR for his final seven seasons.

[buddha]

2 hours ago, chasfh said:

For the same six seasons preceding his last one, Pujols stood at -0.1 oWAR. He will go into the Hall with +2.0 oWAR for his final seven seasons.

barely above ray schalk.

i wonder about the comparison to pujols' value to the angels compared to cabrera's post extension value to detroit.

[Dan Gilmore]

Seven years is an arbitrary cutoff. The rankings would shift around if another timespan was chosen. Not a good look for Miggy either way, just noting the construct.

[oblong]

and while I know you disregarded defense... was Schalk even any good, at least a HOF type player.  My impression is he got in because he was well liked and wasn't part of the Eight. A good old boy.

 

 

[sabretooth]

9 minutes ago, oblong said:

and while I know you disregarded defense... was Schalk even any good, at least a HOF type player.  My impression is he got in because he was well liked and wasn't part of the Eight. A good old boy.

FWIW, I loved the way he was portrayed in 8 Men Out.

[oblong]

6 minutes ago, sabretooth said:

FWIW, I loved the way he was portrayed in 8 Men Out.

That's been on recently.  watched bits of it the last two nights.

Sad it's not as accurate as we've learned but still a great movie to watch.  It's so tight.  Every piece of dialogue moves the story along.  No filler at all.

On a related note I'm reading an oral history of MTV and learned that John Sayles directed Born in the USA and Glory Days.  Bruce hated videos but agreed to those two if he'd direct them.

[RandyMarsh]

Surprised to not see Griffey on Chas's list, my memory tells me that he was terrible for the last half of his year but perhaps he wasn't as bad as I remember. 

[theroundsquare]

he had a couple really good seasons for the Reds, bigger problem was staying on the field 

[chasfh]

1 hour ago, Dan Gilmore said:

Seven years is an arbitrary cutoff. The rankings would shift around if another timespan was chosen. Not a good look for Miggy either way, just noting the construct.

That's the way such time-based constructs go. Ultimately, they are all arbitrary. People like to refer the Jack Morris as the winningest pitcher of the 80s, but change that ten-year time construct from 1980-89 to 1977-86, or to 1984-93—or better yet, just shorten it to 1984-89—and all of a sudden, he's not so winningest is he? 😅

In any event, all I was trying to show is that as far of Hall of Famers go, Miggy's is experiencing a protracted end-of-career slide that will end up being the worst among those players inducted for their bat. If someone wanted to look at just the final three years, or five years, or lengthen it out to the final ten years, they're free to make that point.

 

[chasfh]

1 hour ago, oblong said:

and while I know you disregarded defense... was Schalk even any good, at least a HOF type player.  My impression is he got in because he was well liked and wasn't part of the Eight. A good old boy.

 

 

Schalk was considered THE top catcher of his time, which meant defensive and not hitting, for what that's worth ...

[sabretooth]

3 hours ago, oblong said:

That's been on recently.  watched bits of it the last two nights.

"You sold out!  What's THIS Williams??!?!  What's THIS??!!?!"

3 hours ago, oblong said:

Sad it's not as accurate as we've learned but still a great movie to watch.  It's so tight.  Every piece of dialogue moves the story along.  No filler at all.

Yeah, its a great movie even if its off base in some regards.  John Maloney as Kid Gleason, John Cusack as Buck Weaver, DB Sweeney as Shoeless Joe, Michael Lerner as AR, Kevin Teague as Sport Sullivan, it was a character actor paradise.

The only thing I didn't like about it is how it trashed the baseball chops of Eddie Collins, who was a legit great player and HoFer in the mode of great players at that time.  Whether he was disliked personally as the film suggests, I find it hard to believe that he was openly ridiculed as a player by anyone.

3 hours ago, oblong said:

On a related note I'm reading an oral history of MTV and learned that John Sayles directed Born in the USA and Glory Days.  Bruce hated videos but agreed to those two if he'd direct them.

Interesting... The one thing with Sayles that I thought was kinda silly was his reporter character mocking the players with "I'm forever blowing ballgames" taunt.... Whether they knew they were guilty or not, I'm guessing that if anybody tried that in real life they would have gotten about 2/3 of the ways through the 1st verse and would have been thrown off the train bodily 😎

[chasfh]

1 hour ago, sabretooth said:

Interesting... The one thing with Sayles that I thought was kinda silly was his reporter character mocking the players with "I'm forever blowing ballgames" taunt.... Whether they knew they were guilty or not, I'm guessing that if anybody tried that in real life they would have gotten about 2/3 of the ways through the 1st verse and would have been thrown off the train bodily 😎

If it's a nobody singing that, you're probably right. If it's the famous writer Ring Lardner singing that ... well ...