2022 Detroit Lions Regular Season Thread

[MichiganCardinal]

4 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

What if the bottom doesn't fall out to the point of 1-16. Is there a win total beyond 1 game where if we achieve less than that you believe Sheila will fire Campbell?

I don't think Campbell is going anywhere, regardless of what happens. I'm still on board with him coming back next year myself. But being supportive of Campbell gets harder and harder as the weeks go by and the losses pile up.

I wouldn’t put a hard and fast limit on it. I think any sign of improvement will be enough. I almost think a private conversation should be held with Holmes (whose job I think is safe) as to how many games he thinks this team should have won.

I also wouldn’t put it past this team to string together a few wins to finish out the season the same way they did last year. If the offense and defense both showed up to the same game we may see a repeat of the Cardinals game from last year.

[Motown Bombers]

1 minute ago, MichiganCardinal said:

I wouldn’t put a hard and fast limit on it. I think any sign of improvement will be enough. I almost think a private conversation should be held with Holmes (whose job I think is safe) as to how many games he thinks this team should have won.

I also wouldn’t put it past this team to string together a few wins to finish out the season the same way they did last year. If the offense and defense both showed up to the same game we may see a repeat of the Cardinals game from last year.

I think the conversation would be with Spielman. Isn't that why they brought him in?

[Motown Bombers]

3 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Who said I am dying on the hill? We're simply having a discussion about the Lions offense and coaching staff this season on a message board. It's on Campbell when his offense looks good one week and defense doesn't, then defense looks respectable and the offense gets blanked. Part of being a successful, well coached team is to put a good product out on the field on both sides of the ball, together, each week. We haven't seen a game yet where both the offense and defense looked good at the same time, in the same game. That's on Campbell. If another coach gets fired as a result of the poor performances, Lynn, Pleasant, whomever, that's on Campbell too since he hired them to begin with.

If it makes you feel better if they scored 13 in the 1st half and 14 in the second half, so be it. 

[gehringer_2]

4 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

If it makes you feel better if they scored 13 in the 1st half and 14 in the second half, so be it. 

it probably would. Good coaches and coordinators can use half time to address their own recognized vulnerabilities and plan to expliot vulnerabilities recognized in the opposition. Teams that under perform in the 2nd half are likely either failing to meet that coaching standard, or are underconditioned, which is just as bad an indictment of a coaching staff. So just as a general principle, I do think I'd rather see a team that wasn't consistently worse in the 2nd half.

Edited October 31, 2022 by gehringer_2

[Motown Bombers]

2 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

it probably would. Good coaches and coordinators can use half time to address their own recognized vulnerabilities and plan to expliot vulnerabilities recognized in the opposition. Teams that under perform in the 2nd half are likely either failing to meet that coaching standard, or are underconditioned, which is just as bad an indictment of a coaching staff. So just as a general principle, I do think I'd rather see a team that wasn't consistently worse in the 2nd half.

Then the Dolphins would have led at half time, and after they scored 14 in the 3rd quarter, the complaint would be Goff is just padding his stats in garbage time. 

[gehringer_2]

1 minute ago, Motown Bombers said:

Then the Dolphins would have led at half time, and after they scored 14 in the 3rd quarter, the complaint would be Goff is just padding his stats in garbage time. 

it's true, there always are a lot ways to criticize a losing team. 🤷‍♂️

[Mr.TaterSalad]

1 minute ago, gehringer_2 said:

it probably would. Good coaches and coordinators can use half time to address their own recognized vulnerabilities and plan to expliot vulnerabilities recognized in the opposition. Teams that under perform in the 2nd half are likely either failing to meet that coaching standard, or are underconditioned, which is just as bad an indictment of a coaching staff. So just as a general principle, I do think I'd rather see a team that wasn't consistently worse in the 2nd half.

I think it also speaks to coaching and schematic adjustments coming out of the half that the staff makes. The Miami game is only one game, so it cannot be used to draw a hard and fast conclusion about Campbell and this staff as a whole. But it seemed like to me that Mike McDaniel and his staff made defensive adjustments and shut our offense down. They also made offense adjustments and picked it up offensively. It's on Campbell, Ben Johnson, and Aaron Glenn to counter and adjust back. They didn't yesterday. I sort of feel like that was the story of the 4th quarter against Minnesota too.

[Motown Bombers]

1 minute ago, gehringer_2 said:

it's true, there always are a lot ways to criticize a losing team. 🤷‍♂️

It's pretty clear what is wrong with this team is the defense. 

[gehringer_2]

2 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

It's pretty clear what is wrong with this team is the defense. 

Yes, the defense is horrible while the offense is at least good enough to be terribly inconsistent. 😭

Edited October 31, 2022 by gehringer_2

[Motown Bombers]

2 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

I think it also speaks to coaching and schematic adjustments coming out of the half that the staff makes. The Miami game is only one game, so it cannot be used to draw a hard and fast conclusion about Campbell and this staff as a whole. But it seemed like to me that Mike McDaniel and his staff made defensive adjustments and shut our offense down. They also made offense adjustments and picked it up offensively. It's on Campbell, Ben Johnson, and Aaron Glenn to counter and adjust back. They didn't yesterday. I sort of feel like that was the story of the 4th quarter against Minnesota too.

The Lions only had three offensive possessions. One was killed by 20 yards in penalties resulting in a 2nd and 30, the other had a sack for negative 10 yards, and the third they moved the ball well into FG range before turning over on downs. Sorry, I just don't see an issue with the offense right now when the defense forced one punt and gave up 31 points and nearly 400 yards to Tua. 

[Motown Bombers]

Just now, gehringer_2 said:

Yes, the defense is horrible while the offense is only terribly inconsistent. 😭

I mean, there were only 3 offensive possessions in the 2nd half. 

[gehringer_2]

Just now, Motown Bombers said:

I mean, there were only 3 offensive possessions in the 2nd half. 

right, but if they had scored on only one of them it would have been the difference. I'm not arguing your point that the D is beyond hopeless, only that as soon as you fix the D the inconsistency of the 'O' is still going to leave it questionable if they can be a winning team.

[Mr.TaterSalad]

If the defense is the problem, and by in large it has been, then why not fire Aaron Glenn and only Aubrey Pleasant? I would argue that this firing was done as a scapegoat. Optically, if Campbell had fired Glenn that would look worse for him than firing a position coach. And if you fired both of the coordinators you brought in, that means the pressure is really on you to be the next man gone.

[Motown Bombers]

2 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

right, but if they had scored on only one of them it would have been the difference. I'm not arguing your point that the D is beyond hopeless, only that as soon as you fix the D the inconsistency of the 'O' is still going to leave it questionable if they can be a winning team.

It likely wouldn't because Miami wouldn't have run out the clock on the final possession. They would have went right down the field like they did all game. 

We can also say if the defense got one extra stop they would have won. 

[Motown Bombers]

2 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

If the defense is the problem, and by in large it has been, then why not fire Aaron Glenn and only Aubrey Pleasant? I would argue that this firing was done as a scapegoat. Optically, if Campbell had fired Glenn that would look worse for him than firing a position coach. And if you fired both of the coordinators you brought in, that means the pressure is really on you to be the next man gone.

I mean, Pleasant was probably next in line and if you think he's doing a poor job, why would you fire Glenn and promote Pleasant? I think it's highly likely Glenn is gone at the end of the season. Judging by Campbell's comments, it seems the defensive backs were not on the same page as the defensive gameplan. 

[buddha]

2 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

If the defense is the problem, and by in large it has been, then why not fire Aaron Glenn and only Aubrey Pleasant? I would argue that this firing was done as a scapegoat. Optically, if Campbell had fired Glenn that would look worse for him than firing a position coach. And if you fired both of the coordinators you brought in, that means the pressure is really on you to be the next man gone.

because the secondary gave up almost 400 yards passing to a qb who cant throw more than 15 yards, and apparently didnt follow the game plan.

was campbell's "game plan" thing some cya?  possibly.  we'll see how it goes in the future, but they were roasted by a noodle armed qb this week and have been bad most of the year.

[buddha]

i like dan campbell.  i dont think he's getting fired this year.  i think he makes good in game decisions about 80% of the time.  i think the offense is making the most of their limited personnel.  

however, the defense is in shambles.  i dont think that's campbell's fault, but he's the head coach so the buck stops with him.  ultimately he is responsible and if it continues he's going to be out, and should be out.

as has been said before, the defense wasnt all that good last year and holmes decided to bring it all back and make no significant upgrades outside the draft.  no run stuffing dt, no athletic cornerbacks, no fast linebackers.  they brought anzalone back, signed a stiff in mike hughes, and brought in only udfa's up front.  and lost probably their best linebacker from last year.

if there is a criticism of holmes, its that he brought back a bunch of below average to bad players from last year and only added a bunch of cast off junk players and expected the results to be different.

 

[Motown Bombers]

2 minutes ago, buddha said:

i like dan campbell.  i dont think he's getting fired this year.  i think he makes good in game decisions about 80% of the time.  i think the offense is making the most of their limited personnel.  

however, the defense is in shambles.  i dont think that's campbell's fault, but he's the head coach so the buck stops with him.  ultimately he is responsible and if it continues he's going to be out, and should be out.

as has been said before, the defense wasnt all that good last year and holmes decided to bring it all back and make no significant upgrades outside the draft.  no run stuffing dt, no athletic cornerbacks, no fast linebackers.  they brought anzalone back, signed a stiff in mike hughes, and brought in only udfa's up front.  and lost probably their best linebacker from last year.

if there is a criticism of holmes, its that he brought back a bunch of below average to bad players from last year and only added a bunch of cast off junk players and expected the results to be different.

 

I don't think he expected the results to be different. Whether fans like it or not, they are still in rebuild mode. I expect them to be more aggressive in free agency this year. 

[MichiganCardinal]

I think Holmes has a 3+ year plan. Part of that plan is building the offense first, and not making any substantial free agency moves until year three. Which is all fine.

That said, the team should still be improving on the whole after 24 games under a coaching regime. That’s not necessarily happening.

[gehringer_2]

6 minutes ago, buddha said:

because the secondary gave up almost 400 yards passing to a qb who cant throw more than 15 yards, and apparently didnt follow the game plan.

and the 2nd round pick is rehabbing instead of playing CB. Decisions have consequences. We all loved the Williams pick but there is no free lunch. This is part of the price 

[Motown Bombers]

3 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

and the 2nd round pick is rehabbing instead of playing CB. Decisions have consequences. We all loved the Williams pick but there is no free lunch. This is part of the price 

And they addressed the defense with their first pick. I still love the Williams pick. 

[Motown Bombers]

Lets not forget they got Okudah back who was the 3rd overall pick and playing well. Holmes also drafted Joseph who has showed promise in the secondary. 

[Mr.TaterSalad]

32 minutes ago, MichiganCardinal said:

I think Holmes has a 3+ year plan. Part of that plan is building the offense first, and not making any substantial free agency moves until year three. Which is all fine.

That said, the team should still be improving on the whole after 24 games under a coaching regime. That’s not necessarily happening.

I have used the word improvement all season long and during the preseason. I wanted to see improvement among individual players, position groups, and the coaching staff. I think we've seen that individually among some players. I certainly think the offense as a position group has improved when healthy and on the field together. 

Here in my mind are the players who have either somewhat or substantially improve and those that have regressed or not improved.

Improved: Amon'Ra St. Brown, Jeff Okudah (substantially improved), Josh Reynolds, Kalif Raymond, Kerby Jospeh (a little bit), Malcolm Rodriguez, Penei Sewell

Regressed: Alex Anzalone (was he any good to begin with), Amani Oruwariye (he's turned into an awful player), Charles Harris (a complete ghost), DeShon Elliott, Derek Barnes, Michael Brockers, Will Harris

For all the guys I feel have improved and the offensive improvement that has happened, it simply hasn't been enough to bring this team success or make the coaching staff look good. The other problem that Campbell has is that you can't measure him in a vacuum, you have to compare him to his peers. Unfortunately for him, some of his rookie/2nd year coaching peers like Daboll, Saleh, Smith, all have better records than he does.

[NYLion]

This ship is going down way faster than I imagined it would. This is a desperation move by a coach who is starting to feel the heat, not good.

I originally thought that Campbell wouldn't get fired this season but while I still think it's highly unlikely, I don't think it's impossible anymore.

Also, interesting that the secondary coach gets scapegoated when the defense at every level is equally bad. How does Glenn survive this? Oh right, he's Campbell's buddy. This isn't a good look any way you slice it.

[NYLion]

3 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

I have used the word improvement all season long and during the preseason. I wanted to see improvement among individual players, position groups, and the coaching staff. I think we've seen that individually among some players. I certainly think the offense as a position group has improved when healthy and on the field together. 

Here in my mind are the players who have either somewhat or substantially improve and those that have regressed or not improved.

Improved: Amon'Ra St. Brown, Jeff Okudah (substantially improved), Josh Reynolds, Kalif Raymond, Kerby Jospeh (a little bit), Malcolm Rodriguez, Penei Sewell

Regressed: Alex Anzalone (was he any good to begin with), Amani Oruwariye (he's turned into an awful player), Charles Harris (a complete ghost), DeShon Elliott, Derek Barnes, Michael Brockers, Will Harris

For all the guys I feel have improved and the offensive improvement that has happened, it simply hasn't been enough to bring this team success or make the coaching staff look good. The other problem that Campbell has is that you can't measure him in a vacuum, you have to compare him to his peers. Unfortunately for him, some of his rookie/2nd year coaching peers like Daboll, Saleh, Smith, all have better records than he does.

The bolded is exactly right and it's not like those teams are blessed with much more talent on the offensive side of the ball in particular. 

I don't think 3 wins is going to cut it. He's going to need at least 4 wins to survive and for the team to show some real progress. It's not all about wins/losses but it has to be somewhat about that, can't polish the turd of a 3 win or less season after a 3 win season.