Biden's presidency

[Mr.TaterSalad]

13 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

As overstated as I think the impact of CRT was on these recent elections and on our current political situation as a whole, 'defund the police' is absolutely different... I don't believe that any mainstream Dem politicians really ever supported it, and sure, the some of the arguments being made were more nuanced than that slogan. But it was absolutely political poison in the 2020 cycle and the results on Tuesday in Minneapolis (where Frey was reelected and where the police restructuring proposal went down) really drive home that point as well.

I'm not someone who hates all SJ causes or anything, but I sometimes wish advocates would think more about how to persuade people to ones side on an issue.... we saw a lot of examples in the aftermath of George Floyd of how *not* to persuade the electorate. It should be a learning lesson.

The issue has become hyper partisan and polarized. So I think some in the activist community for blacks, POC progressives and white progressives see people on the right giving atta boys to the cop who shot Mike Brown or George Zimmerman for shooting Trayvon Martin or the cop who kneeled on George Floyd's neck. Some on the right see it out of the lens of racisms and see these black boys and men as thugs who had it coming. So in response to that, and the fact that so many of these cops and individuals get off, some on the left and in the activist community look at that and wonder how you can have nuance with those types of people. How are you supposed to sit quietly when there appears to be two systems of justice, one for white people and another for persons of color. So they then respond with their own extremes, like defunding the police or tweets about how cops are racist and policing can't be reformed, but needs to be abolished.

[mtutiger]

4 hours ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Warren is the politician I admire most along with Bernie. I knocked doors for Warren this time around and phone banked for her until she dropped out. I suppose if she ran in 2024 I'd do it again because I do believe in my heart she is the smartest and most qualified person we have in politics to be President. But I have a few concerns with her at this point, having sat through this last election cycle.

#1: She'll be 74-75 when 2024 comes around and would herself only be a one-term President likely. We need a charismatic, young political figure like Obama was in 2024=. Someone who can not only serve two terms but can also be around the party for years to come to help recharge and reshape our battered brand and sell it to the masses.

#2: She has a messaging problem that she needs to fix. While I personally loved her "I have a plan for that, I have a plan for everything" wonky style messaging, the average voter does not. I always like the way Elizabeth Warren talks to me like a professor, as if I am a student, wanting to be educated and wanting to hear just the facts and issues. That kind of smart, thoughtful politics, built around big, bold progressive ideas really sells to educated lefties like me.

However, her professorial style of politics and the way she focuses on the issues does not appeal to the average voter, certainly not the high school educated black or white working class voter. They aren't looking for Professor Warren to get up there and tell them about all the brilliant ideas and plans she has to solve what ails them. Some of these voters do appreciate the Bernie/Warren rhetoric built around us versus them, middle/working class vs the wealthy, as John Edwards would say, Our America/Their America. What they don't approve of though is some college professor getting up there, acting like she knows everything, and talking to them like a teacher would her students. Warren can come across as too wonky and too preachy and as partially shown by the last Democratic Primary, voters don't always appreciate that. When you look at the demos of who voted for Warren, you can see it is largely white, college-educated liberals. She struggled with blacks, Hispanics, and blue-collar voters.

She needs to rebrand her messaging and focus less on the specific issues that few voters outside her college-educated bubble care about and focus more on values and her personal story. The average voter cares more about generic values like equality, fairness, liberty, safety, stability, etc. than they do a 10-point plan and a 50 page white paper on how you're going to tackle poverty in America. While Warren would be a great President because of her calm demeanor, intellect, thoughtful and strategic nature, she isn't a good enough campaigner to get to the White House first. She needs to focus more on how her daddy had a heart attack and her momma had to go to work at Sears to support the family, the personal story and values that people can relate too.

I don't think Warren will run in 2024 and I'm not sure she should given her age. If she does run though, she can't just go out there and run a 2.0 version of her 2020 primary campaign or she will lose again.

This isn't specific to Warren, but one thing I was frustrated with in general about the 2020 Dem Primaries is how much of the debate was spent talking about things that, politically, were not feasible. For instance, it seemed like practically every TV debate had 30 minutes on health care, with extensive discussions about Medicare for All which, frankly, would have never happened even had Warren or Sanders won the primary and general elections. Much discussion on immigration as well, including a lot of discussion about amnesty. Put another way, much of the discussion that was centered around stuff that would have never had the requisite support in the Legislative branch to pass anyway. I'm just trying to imagine the message that the average voter who watched the debate (or the two minute blurb the next morning on the local news) got out of that, and how beneficial it was.

There's a lot of reasons why Biden ended up winning the primary, but one of the more underrated reasons IMO is, frankly, he came across a lot more realisitic about what could be accomplished when he was campaigning. And that means a lot to parts of the Democratic Party, particular with AA voters who are not predisposed to take flyers on risky candidates.

In terms of your comments about how Warren should retailor herself, one of the lessons that needs to be taken after VA/NJ (frankly, overdue to be taken) is that it's not good enough to put out some good policy and just hope that people go onto the website.... they all need to be out campaigning on this stuff. And not just in the suburbs and urban areas, they need to get out into more hostile territory to try and persuade. There's this tendency in politics (on both sides) to just look at the color of the county and determine whether it's worth spending time in a place accordingly, but the Dem vote you win in a Huron County counts the same as one you win in Wayne County..... if you can decrease the margin you lose in red counties, you can win a lot more statewide elections that way than you do getting your doors blown in.

Edited November 10, 2021 by mtutiger

[Tiger337]

22 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

Do you think Obama would have won if he could have run in 2020? I wonder anymore.

yes

[Tiger337]

4 hours ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Warren is the politician I admire most along with Bernie. I knocked doors for Warren this time around and phone banked for her until she dropped out. I suppose if she ran in 2024 I'd do it again because I do believe in my heart she is the smartest and most qualified person we have in politics to be President. But I have a few concerns with her at this point, having sat through this last election cycle.

#1: She'll be 74-75 when 2024 comes around and would herself only be a one-term President likely. We need a charismatic, young political figure like Obama was in 2024=. Someone who can not only serve two terms but can also be around the party for years to come to help recharge and reshape our battered brand and sell it to the masses.

#2: She has a messaging problem that she needs to fix. While I personally loved her "I have a plan for that, I have a plan for everything" wonky style messaging, the average voter does not. I always like the way Elizabeth Warren talks to me like a professor, as if I am a student, wanting to be educated and wanting to hear just the facts and issues. That kind of smart, thoughtful politics, built around big, bold progressive ideas really sells to educated lefties like me.

However, her professorial style of politics and the way she focuses on the issues does not appeal to the average voter, certainly not the high school educated black or white working class voter. They aren't looking for Professor Warren to get up there and tell them about all the brilliant ideas and plans she has to solve what ails them. Some of these voters do appreciate the Bernie/Warren rhetoric built around us versus them, middle/working class vs the wealthy, as John Edwards would say, Our America/Their America. What they don't approve of though is some college professor getting up there, acting like she knows everything, and talking to them like a teacher would her students. Warren can come across as too wonky and too preachy and as partially shown by the last Democratic Primary, voters don't always appreciate that. When you look at the demos of who voted for Warren, you can see it is largely white, college-educated liberals. She struggled with blacks, Hispanics, and blue-collar voters.

She needs to rebrand her messaging and focus less on the specific issues that few voters outside her college-educated bubble care about and focus more on values and her personal story. The average voter cares more about generic values like equality, fairness, liberty, safety, stability, etc. than they do a 10-point plan and a 50 page white paper on how you're going to tackle poverty in America. While Warren would be a great President because of her calm demeanor, intellect, thoughtful and strategic nature, she isn't a good enough campaigner to get to the White House first. She needs to focus more on how her daddy had a heart attack and her momma had to go to work at Sears to support the family, the personal story and values that people can relate too.

I don't think Warren will run in 2024 and I'm not sure she should given her age. If she does run though, she can't just go out there and run a 2.0 version of her 2020 primary campaign or she will lose again.

Biden and Trump are old and they are probably both going to run and I think she is healthier physically and mentally than both of them.  I think she's smart, but not a good candidate because she is boring.  I don't mind boring, but most Americans do.  

[buddha]

47 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

This isn't specific to Warren, but one thing I was frustrated with in general about the 2020 Dem Primaries is how much of the debate was spent talking about things that, politically, were not feasible. For instance, it seemed like practically every TV debate had 30 minutes on health care, with extensive discussions about Medicare for All which, frankly, would have never happened even had Warren or Sanders won the primary and general elections. Much discussion on immigration as well, including a lot of discussion about amnesty. Put another way, much of the discussion that was centered around stuff that would have never had the requisite support in the Legislative branch to pass anyway. I'm just trying to imagine the message that the average voter who watched the debate (or the two minute blurb the next morning on the local news) got out of that, and how beneficial it was.

There's a lot of reasons why Biden ended up winning the primary, but one of the more underrated reasons IMO is, frankly, he came across a lot more realisitic about what could be accomplished when he was campaigning. And that means a lot to parts of the Democratic Party, particular with AA voters who are not predisposed to take flyers on risky candidates.

In terms of your comments about how Warren should retailor herself, one of the lessons that needs to be taken after VA/NJ (frankly, overdue to be taken) is that it's not good enough to put out some good policy and just hope that people go onto the website.... they all need to be out campaigning on this stuff. And not just in the suburbs and urban areas, they need to get out into more hostile territory to try and persuade. There's this tendency in politics (on both sides) to just look at the color of the county and determine whether it's worth spending time in a place accordingly, but the Dem vote you win in a Huron County counts the same as one you win in Wayne County..... if you can decrease the margin you lose in red counties, you can win a lot more statewide elections that way than you do getting your doors blown in.

another underrated aspect of the primary campaign was biden's perceived control of "the center."  a lot of candidates who could have been really good centrist candidates (imo) like harris and sort of buttigieg (who tried a little harder to straddle the line) instead chose to tack to the left and go for those votes instead (especially harris).  the road was open for harris to be "obama like" and be a centrist, prosecutor technocrat and she chose to triple down on being the twitter candidate.  i mean, when asked about medicare for all they all raised their hands except kloubachar, i think.  

in fairness to them, the candidates who tried to remain in the center (kloubachar and sort of buttigieg) never got any traction.

the dems nominating warren would be a gift to the gop.  an old white woman liberal from TAXachusetts?  that's the perfect liberal to run against.  add in the native american stuff that they will continually bring up and she'd get slaughtered.

[buddha]

46 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

Biden and Trump are old and they are probably both going to run and I think she is healthier physically and mentally than both of them.  I think she's smart, but not a good candidate because she is boring.  I don't mind boring, but most Americans do.  

i dont think she's boring, i her personality rubs people the wrong way and she's hamstrung herself with the native american stuff.  people have formed their opinions about her.

[Tiger337]

3 minutes ago, buddha said:

i dont think she's boring, i her personality rubs people the wrong way and she's hamstrung herself with the native american stuff.  people have formed their opinions about her.

Boring or not, she has a personality problem which has her permanently buried.  She often sounds like a Harvard professor attempting to be cool.  There is no way she will ever appeal to the masses.  

[Mr.TaterSalad]

4 minutes ago, buddha said:

i dont think she's boring, i her personality rubs people the wrong way and she's hamstrung herself with the native american stuff.  people have formed their opinions about her.

I'll never understand how the BS about her heritage would be a bigger story than a President who mocks disabled people and says he moves on a married woman and did try to f*** her. But such is the political and media climate we live in.

[Tiger337]

3 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

I'll never understand how the BS about her heritage would be a bigger story than a President who mocks disabled people and says he moves on a married woman and did try to f*** her. But such is the political and media climate we live in.

A friend, who is fairly intelligent most of the time, accused her of changing her whole life by stealing a job from an Indian.  It's amazing how they make BS like that stick.  

[buddha]

26 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

Boring or not, she has a personality problem which has her permanently buried.  She often sounds like a Harvard professor attempting to be cool.  There is no way she will ever appeal to the masses.  

i agree.  i would say its a personality thing.  it has a lot to do with her being a woman too.

[buddha]

26 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

I'll never understand how the BS about her heritage would be a bigger story than a President who mocks disabled people and says he moves on a married woman and did try to f*** her. But such is the political and media climate we live in.

its not a bigger story than trump's personality issues.  people were very motivated to vote against trump for those reasons.

but it was an issue for warren.  

[Tiger337]

22 minutes ago, buddha said:

i agree.  i would say its a personality thing.  it has a lot to do with her being a woman too.

I think women have a harder time overcoming scandals than men because they are expected to be sweet and kind and upright whereas it's considered ok and even good for a man to be a bad boy sometimes.  Women are also "too weak", but if a woman behaves strong, then she's a b****.  

[gehringer_2]

1 minute ago, Tiger337 said:

I think women have a harder time overcoming scandals than men because they are expected to be sweet and kind and upright whereas it's considered ok and even good for a man to be a bad boy sometimes.  Women are also "too weak", but if a woman behaves strong, then she's a b****.  

correct. At least unless you are Margaret Thatcher.

Edited November 10, 2021 by gehringer_2

[Mr.TaterSalad]

11 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

correct. At least unless you are Margaret Thatcher.

Right, and she was also allowed to be a dunce.

[buddha]

12 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

correct. At least unless you are Margaret Thatcher.

has there been an american female candidate who embraced it like thatcher?  An "iron lady" who embraced her inner bit...ummm...cantankerousness?

i dont know if that would fly in america on a national scale.

[Motown Bombers]

14 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

I think women have a harder time overcoming scandals than men because they are expected to be sweet and kind and upright whereas it's considered ok and even good for a man to be a bad boy sometimes.  Women are also "too weak", but if a woman behaves strong, then she's a b****.  

I also find it hard to believe a woman would have to deal with Tara Reid type accusations or be called a child predator because you show the slightest bit of affection to a child. 

[Mr.TaterSalad]

9 minutes ago, buddha said:

has there been an american female candidate who embraced it like thatcher?  An "iron lady" who embraced her inner bit...ummm...cantankerousness?

i dont know if that would fly in america on a national scale.

Marjorie Taylor Greene enjoys being an asshole, but she only gets away with it because she isn't a liberal woman or woman of color. I think people like AOC, Ayanna Pressley, Cori Bush, and Rashida embrace their fighting nature, but could never get away with it because of the racist and xenophobic (and Islamophobic in Rashida's case) backlash they would face.

[Mr.TaterSalad]

13 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

I also find it hard to believe a woman would have to deal with Tara Reid type accusations or be called a child predator because you show the slightest bit of affection to a child. 

Hillary had to deal with accusations of running a sex ring out of a pizza shop and the right ate that up hook, line, and sinker. She also had to deal with accusations that she had her personal attorney Vince Foster clipped.

[Motown Bombers]

1 minute ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Marjorie Taylor Greene enjoys being an asshole, but she only gets away with it because she isn't a liberal woman or woman of color. I think people like AOC, Ayanna Pressley, Cori Bush, and Rashida embrace their fighting nature, but could never get away with it because of the racist and xenophobic (and Islamophobic in Rashida's case) backlash they would face.

Marjorie Taylor Greene would never win a national race.

[Mr.TaterSalad]

Just now, Motown Bombers said:

Marjorie Taylor Greene would never win a national race.

We thought that about Trump didn't we.

[Motown Bombers]

1 minute ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Hillary had to deal with accusations of running a sex ring out of a pizza shop and the right ate that up hook, line, and sinker. She also had to deal with accusations that she had her personal attorney Vince Foster clipped.

I mean, every Democrat has operated a child sex ring at some point in time. Was Hillary ever called creepy Hillary because she touched the shoulders of a child? I also believe it was Bill Clinton who had Foster whacked and thereby association Hillary had him whacked. 

[Motown Bombers]

1 minute ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

We thought that about Trump didn't we.

He lost by 7 million votes. I was also told a black man would never become president either. 

[Mr.TaterSalad]

2 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

He lost by 7 million votes. I was also told a black man would never become president either. 

We don't elect people by popularity though, so he didn't lose in the end. I wouldn't write off MTG being able to win the Electoral College. I think she could give Democrats a run for it. We live in an era where we can't take anything for granted.

I took Trump for granted in 2016, still voted for Hillary in the very end, and I'm not doing that again.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Mr.TaterSalad

[Archie]

2 hours ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

The issue has become hyper partisan and polarized. So I think some in the activist community for blacks, POC progressives and white progressives see people on the right giving atta boys to the cop who shot Mike Brown or George Zimmerman for shooting Trayvon Martin or the cop who kneeled on George Floyd's neck...

Its not right to compate three different situations.  Brown went for the officers gun. The officer did nothing wrong and protected himself. Anyone who goes for an officers gun is going to be in a world of hurt. Zimmerman is a private citizen who used lethal force when attacked.  He is probably less than an upstanding citizen but still has a right to protect himself.  Floyd is a totally different situation.

[Motown Bombers]

5 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

We don't elect people by popularity though, so he didn't lose in the end. I wouldn't write off MTG being able to win the Electoral College. I think she could give Democrats a run for it. We live in an era where we can't take anything for granted.

I took Trump for granted in 2016, still voted for Hillary in the very end, and I'm not doing that again.

Any Republican by default will get 45% of the vote. I think the days of landslides are well behind us. 

What I misread is that the entire party would go down with Trump. I felt the Republicans would moderate him some. I didn't expect the likes of Lindsay Graham to go all in on Trump.