Biden's presidency

[oblong]

[CMRivdogs]

Which one received a bad conduct discharge after being convicted of bouncing checks and attempted theft of $10,000 while in Iraq in 2008? Which one had their rank reduced to corporal according to court martial records.

He may be innocent of espionage, but he's no friggin Boy Scout

[mtutiger]

41 minutes ago, CMRivdogs said:

Which one received a bad conduct discharge after being convicted of bouncing checks and attempted theft of $10,000 while in Iraq in 2008? Which one had their rank reduced to corporal according to court martial records.

He may be innocent of espionage, but he's no friggin Boy Scout

But at the end of the day, whatever his past transgressions may be, they do not matter, just as Griner's do not matter. All that matters is that both of them are Americans who were wrongfully imprisoned in Russia. And we should celebrate the successes we have (today Griner) while redoubling efforts to gain release to those still imprisoned (Whelan and likely others).

My answer is the same as it was when some people complained that Griner wasn't released when Trevor Reed was released a few months ago (and yes there were a lot of complaints): we don't have to play this game. The Benny Johnson types (and those who complained about Reed being released over Griner) want us fighting and dividing over this shit, and it is not worth it. Especially because we all want the same thing in the end (or at least I hope we do).

It's just really counterproductive and discouraging to see Americans being brought home turn into a partisan cudgel. It wasn't right when it was Trevor Reed, it wasn't right when it was Otto Warmbier during the last administration, and it isn't right now.

Edited December 8, 2022 by mtutiger

[Tigeraholic1]

20 minutes ago, CMRivdogs said:

Which one received a bad conduct discharge after being convicted of bouncing checks and attempted theft of $10,000 while in Iraq in 2008? Which one had their rank reduced to corporal according to court martial records.

He may be innocent of espionage, but he's no friggin Boy Scout

He is an American being held without cause. As for digging at his service record that has nothing to do with his current situation. 
 

Folks think student loans are sleazy try being on base and there are check into cash spots everywhere. A lot of guys would be upside down over a month in advances because of the crazy interest rates. It’s a real problem. Not condoning what he did I just don’t know the extent of what he was convicted of.

[chasfh]

2 hours ago, oblong said:

How much you wanna bet this came out of IRA in St. Petersburg?

[ewsieg]

I was interested in Biden's 'illegitimate reasons' comment for Whelan.  If a terrorist / international arms dealer that was wanted by Interpol isn't enough for Whelan (even if they truly think he was a spy) and a girl with a vape pen (i'm not mentioning by name not to slight her, but to point out how small time her discretion was)  , I somewhat suspect that he's off the table in terms of negotiations.

[gehringer_2]

then again, people act like Bout is some kind of prize for Putin to get back - maybe, maybe not. He's been out of circulation for 10yrs so it's not like he can show up tomorrow and start making it rain for Putins army by Tuesday. Otherwise he's just another creep.

[pfife]

4 hours ago, mtutiger said:

Everything I've read suggests that Whelan wasn't on the table by Russia. Not sure why, but that they place a different value on him than Griner apparnetly.

If true, that leaves you either taking the one you can get or taking nobody. And if that is in fact the scenario, I just don't see how it's a bad thing. Kinda sad to see so many people trying to create a culture war out of it.

Maybe I'm late to the thread so sorry if this was said.   Russia thinks Whelan is a spy and wanted a spy in return.  They did not consider Griner a spy so were willing to deal on it.   I believe NPR told me that. 

[Tigeraholic1]

1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said:

then again, people act like Bout is some kind of prize for Putin to get back - maybe, maybe not. He's been out of circulation for 10yrs so it's not like he can show up tomorrow and start making it rain for Putins army by Tuesday. Otherwise he's just another creep.

Here is a very pedestrian look at Viktor. I guess I have never heard of any mafia member who did a 10 year bid resuming their criminal career afterwards. 

 

Edited December 9, 2022 by Tigeraholic1

[Deleterious]

22 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

Here is a very pedestrian look at Viktor. I guess I have never heard of any mafia member who did a 10 year bid resuming their criminal career afterwards. 

 

A lot do.  Luciano did 10 years of a 50 year sentence, got out early for helping the US during WWII and was instantly deported to Italy and continued to run things in the states through Frank Costello.  Costello also did some smaller stints and always came back out as boss, mostly because Luciano wanted it that way though.

Sam Giancana did something like 4 or 5 years when he was coming up.  He got out and eventually ran The Outfit in Chicago taking over from Tony Accardo.  Shit, Frank Nitti also ran The Outfit after Capone and he did some time before that.  Paul Ricca went to jail when he was running The Outfit and was paroled and most believe he shared power with Accardo after getting out.

Thing is, if they get 20-30 years and come out when they are 70 or 80 years old, yeah the don't do much after.  But if they get out in their prime they almost always go back to crime.  

[gehringer_2]

But arms dealing is not exactly parallel to the Italian mafia. The mafia has roots, persistance ,family, geography that all stay behind when the don goes to the slammer. When he comes out, a lot of those same people are in a lot of those same places and families still have standing. The arms business is more transient and transactional plus the production and tech landscape is a constantly evolving target. Bout may eventually get back into the business because that is what he knows, I'm was just saying he's not going to be any kind of immediate asset

Edited December 9, 2022 by gehringer_2

[romad1]

11 hours ago, chasfh said:

How much you wanna bet this came out of IRA in St. Petersburg?

Its more than likely.   Kudos to the Whelan family for not feeding the hate machine.   I'm not happy that Bout is out of our custody.  We eventually caved to Israel on Pollard and that burned me up too.  That at least had the fig-leaf of his being paroled.   Spy swaps happen.  The country that doesn't try to get its agents out will eventually not have agents to work for them.   Griner was not an agent.   Whelan is not an agent either.  He was a very mixed up dude trying to be an agent.

[chasfh]

15 hours ago, oblong said:

BTW, did I miss the memo that said Brittney Griner hates America?

[oblong]

32 minutes ago, chasfh said:

BTW, did I miss the memo that said Brittney Griner hates America?

well she kneeled or something... or she's a black lesbian.  what more do you need to know?

 

[Tigeraholic1]

3 hours ago, chasfh said:

BTW, did I miss the memo that said Brittney Griner hates America?

Here is a little background on how it all started.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2020/07/28/brittney-griner-brianna-turner-call-wnba-stop-playing-national-anthem-this-season/

[chasfh]

Numerous charming takes from the right wing.

[chasfh]

2 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

Here is a little background on how it all started.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2020/07/28/brittney-griner-brianna-turner-call-wnba-stop-playing-national-anthem-this-season/

 From the story:

Griner said Monday that she believed “we should not play the national anthem during our season,” a 22-game schedule compressed because of the coronavirus pandemic. Like Colin Kaepernick and others in sports, she is clear that her message does not concern the military or the flag. It’s about police brutality and social injustice.

“I don’t mean that in any disrespect to our country. My dad was in Vietnam and a law officer for 30 years,” she said. “I wanted to be a cop before basketball. I do have pride for my country.”

Brianna Turner, Griner’s teammate, agreed and took her opposition a step further.

“I personally don’t think it belongs in sports,” she said, adding that “it’s not played at Walmart, it’s not played when you go to Six Flags. Why is it played before sporting events?”

 

I see nothing wrong with this, but then, I'm not a red hat.

[Tigeraholic1]

13 minutes ago, chasfh said:

 From the story:

Griner said Monday that she believed “we should not play the national anthem during our season,” a 22-game schedule compressed because of the coronavirus pandemic. Like Colin Kaepernick and others in sports, she is clear that her message does not concern the military or the flag. It’s about police brutality and social injustice.

“I don’t mean that in any disrespect to our country. My dad was in Vietnam and a law officer for 30 years,” she said. “I wanted to be a cop before basketball. I do have pride for my country.”

Brianna Turner, Griner’s teammate, agreed and took her opposition a step further.

“I personally don’t think it belongs in sports,” she said, adding that “it’s not played at Walmart, it’s not played when you go to Six Flags. Why is it played before sporting events?”

 

I see nothing wrong with this, but then, I'm not a red hat.

So you would be cool with canceling the NA during sporting events? 

[chasfh]

3 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

So you would be cool with canceling the NA during sporting events? 

Not only would I be cool with it, I've advocated as much for decades, sometimes on this and the old forum.

The one exception I might make is for international matches, such as Olympics and international cups.

[Motown Bombers]

I totally want to get rid of the national anthem from sporting events and the military spectacles. 

[CMRivdogs]

I realize the NA is traditional at sporting events and other events, but I feel along the way it just becomes rote and really doesn't mean as much as it should. We're just going thru the motions.

Like saying The Lord's Prayer or repeating the Apostles' Creed or such at church. We're mouthing words without thinking about meanings.

[ewsieg]

7 minutes ago, chasfh said:

 I see nothing wrong with this, but then, I'm not a red hat.

I think it's all about how one views the national anthem and it's purpose.  Following is my stereotype opinion.  As a whole, when it comes to "America" GOP voters are more optimistic (Best country in the world, 'Murica!!! Whoo!!!) and Dem voters are more pessimistic of the country.  Maybe not the best way to lay it out as I'm not saying that as a dig against the Dem's, they just look at more of the issues with the country whereas the GOP tends to look for the good.  Truthfully it's a bit of both, we are a great country, but with many flaws too.  

In terms of Colin and Britney, it was perceived as a slap in the face to our military even if they tried to explain that it's a form of protest and not tied to that.  I personally don't think they are on the same level, but I'd almost equate it to the nword use.  Similar how most people just know not to ever say or write the N-word, you still occasionally see that story of some newly famous person that quoted a rap lyric when they were 15.  It doesn't matter what the intent was, that kid will be labeled a racist.  Ironically the right will complain about that and argue you should look at the intent.  Unfortunately neither side ever gives the other the benefit of the doubt.

[chasfh]

4 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

I think it's all about how one views the national anthem and it's purpose.  Following is my stereotype opinion.  As a whole, when it comes to "America" GOP voters are more optimistic (Best country in the world, 'Murica!!! Whoo!!!) and Dem voters are more pessimistic of the country.  Maybe not the best way to lay it out as I'm not saying that as a dig against the Dem's, they just look at more of the issues with the country whereas the GOP tends to look for the good.  Truthfully it's a bit of both, we are a great country, but with many flaws too.  

In terms of Colin and Britney, it was perceived as a slap in the face to our military even if they tried to explain that it's a form of protest and not tied to that.  I personally don't think they are on the same level, but I'd almost equate it to the nword use.  Similar how most people just know not to ever say or write the N-word, you still occasionally see that story of some newly famous person that quoted a rap lyric when they were 15.  It doesn't matter what the intent was, that kid will be labeled a racist.  Ironically the right will complain about that and argue you should look at the intent.  Unfortunately neither side ever gives the other the benefit of the doubt.

It's a slap in the military's face to those people who believe it is the military that gives us our freedoms.

I think it reflects in part an exercise in underdogging ("they hate us because we're patriots"), and in part fear and loathing of people they can't imagine even existing since the very idea of them is just so disgusting. The Anthem is a virtue signifier: express your love for it and you're a good patriot; express anything other than love for it and you obviously hate America.

I don't see how your n-bomb analogy applies, but OK.

[oblong]

 

[chasfh]

12 minutes ago, CMRivdogs said:

I realize the NA is traditional at sporting events and other events, but I feel along the way it just becomes rote and really doesn't mean as much as it should. We're just going thru the motions.

Like saying The Lord's Prayer or repeating the Apostles' Creed or such at church. We're mouthing words without thinking about meanings.

I agree that it really doesn't mean as much as it should, although for a different reason: rather than becoming rote, it's become something akin to an American Idol spectacle, in which performers try to out-do every performance of it they've ever seen before, injecting every vocal flourish they've ever learned into it. It's seemingly no longer about solemn reverence for your country, or even the flag—it's about how entertaining the singer can make it, and how amped up they can get the crowd over it.

This guy is a good example of what I mean. Get a load of how he hits "free" toward the end: