Hongbit Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 7 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: So Bey was #3? I think he’s a #2 but there are many of those guys and they aren’t really that valuable to teams that don’t have enough #1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longgone Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 Wiseman, in no way, shape or form, fills a need, no one needs five centers. However, just based on talent, on ceiling, you'd take Wiseman over Bey all day long. What the hell is Weaver doing? Maybe just upgrading young talent wherever he can to be sorted out later. Maybe just hedging his bets that one of them fulfills his potential and becomes a star. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 14 minutes ago, Longgone said: ... no one needs five centers.... Stew and Bagley both need to be pushed permanently to PF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Longgone said: Wiseman, in no way, shape or form, fills a need, no one needs five centers. However, just based on talent, on ceiling, you'd take Wiseman over Bey all day long. What the hell is Weaver doing? Maybe just upgrading young talent wherever he can to be sorted out later. Maybe just hedging his bets that one of them fulfills his potential and becomes a star. Yeah, sort of like Al Avila used to collect also-ran middle infielders hoping one would eventually hit. We saw how well that worked out.... Edited February 9, 2023 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyMarsh Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 I guess Weaver has been enamored with Wiseman for awhile, saw some reports saying that he tried to move up to get him in the 2020 draft. I'm guessing he gets consistent playing time the rest of the year and if he proves himself or shows a glimmer of his upside we'll make some corresponding moves in the offseason to free up more time for him in the coming years. All in all I don't hate the trade, it sounds like Bey wasn't gonna be in our long term plans and we likely weren't going to get a young player with any more upside than Wiseman for him. No matter who we got there were going to be some flaws with him. So to me this is just a meh trade, nothing I love but nothing I'm going to lose sleep over either. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KL2 Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 30 minutes ago, Longgone said: Wiseman, in no way, shape or form, fills a need, no one needs five centers. However, just based on talent, on ceiling, you'd take Wiseman over Bey all day long. What the hell is Weaver doing? Maybe just upgrading young talent wherever he can to be sorted out later. Maybe just hedging his bets that one of them fulfills his potential and becomes a star. My biggest weaver problem is the roster hasn't gotten better at all. They've changed guys, they've shuffled vets and they are still at the top of the lottery. People say we'll cade got hurt, but without him you see a last place roster. That's my weaver problem is that he has built a roster just devoid of talent. Even with cade there are like no support pieces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 2 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said: I guess Weaver has been enamored with Wiseman for awhile, saw some reports saying that he tried to move up to get him in the 2020 draft. I'm guessing he gets consistent playing time the rest of the year and if he proves himself or shows a glimmer of his upside we'll ... Just a WAG here.... But guessing that Weaver believes Wiseman can turn into a Myles Turner 2.0? If he does that/ is capable of doing that... I'm on board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 6 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: Just a WAG here.... But guessing that Weaver believes Wiseman can turn into a Myles Turner 2.0? If he does that/ is capable of doing that... I'm on board. On the glass half full side - He is still on the young side for the development of a 7 footer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 5 minutes ago, KL2 said: My biggest weaver problem is the roster hasn't gotten better at all. They've changed guys, they've shuffled vets and they are still at the top of the lottery. People say we'll cade got hurt, but without him you see a last place roster. That's my weaver problem is that he has built a roster just devoid of talent. Even with cade there are like no support pieces. and traded a lot of assets to get there. now, the assets might not have been all that valuable, but they were assets. there's a lot of fool's gold in there. guys like bagley and wiseman who were top 2 picks so they appear to have value. but that was based on projection for 18 and 19 year olds. that projection doesnt always come to fruition and we're out here giving up legit nba players to take a chance on it. i agree with everybody that bey is nothing special, but he is still an nba player. and if he is nothing special, what does that say about weaver trading three second round picks and two solid nba rotation players for him in the first place? and we dont know what ELSE bey might have been able to get in a trade other than wiseman. same with stewart. love the hustle. love the muscle. everything else is blah. and we gave up a future first round pick to draft him. what's next? is it too late to trade stew for jabari parker? he's a tall #2 pick who was a bust. get on it troy! jabari probably still has some potential! probably not. the other team will likely ask for something way too valuable like rodney magruder or corey joseph. cant part with those guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hart Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 At least people are beginning to question Weaver now. When I brought it up early in the season, I got ridiculed for questioning the timeline of a rebuild. At some point, we have to stop being one of the three worst teams in basketball. Next year is crucial. We need to see some kind of progress next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hart Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 I am glad we kept Bojan. He's a good player under contract for two more years. The offer would have to blow me away to deal him. I am not big in to acquiring assets anymore. At this point, management needs to prove they can build a winning team regardless of how many high draft picks they can stack on top of each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 26 minutes ago, Hart said: At least people are beginning to question Weaver now. When I brought it up early in the season, I got ridiculed for questioning the timeline of a rebuild. At some point, we have to stop being one of the three worst teams in basketball. Next year is crucial. We need to see some kind of progress next year. ive been questioning weaver for a long time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyMarsh Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 (edited) The only reason I don't question Weaver more is that we don't really know what the end game is and what the objective is. Like for all we know the end game in 2020 was to completely tank for 3 years then start to compete in 2023-24 and that's why we still have Casey and give a bunch of minutes to old vets. If that was the plan then we ended up with Cade, Ivey, Duren, Wiseman, Stew, the 23 1st and the dependable vet in Bogey to start to compete with, in which case were not far off from the plan. Hopefully we get a new coach as well and if we do I think we can be in the bottom of the playoffs next year and hopefully continue to grow and get better from there. Edited February 9, 2023 by RandyMarsh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 Other rebuilding teams hoard draft picks, we hoard bigs who can't shoot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleterious Posted February 9, 2023 Author Share Posted February 9, 2023 Here is the hope. You hope he didn't develop because GS was in won now mode and couldn't dedicate the minutes to let him develope. Not sure I believe it. But that is the most positive spin I can put on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 (edited) Cleveland got Garland and Mobley and won more than 20 more games in Mobley's first season. Cade played 64 games his 1st season and the Pistons still only won 20 of them. We pick up #5 and #13 in 2022 and are still a 20 win team. And we are still left hoping Case plus Mr X from the '23 draft will be the saviors once they play together -- but the expectation anything they do in the draft changes things has to fade after watching the last two drafts have zero impact on win totals. It's great to be able to say you have these nice young players - but they're supposed to make a difference. Edited February 9, 2023 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 13 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: Cleveland got Garland and Mobley and won more than 20 more games in Mobley's first season. Cade played 64 games his 1st season and the Pistons still only won 20 of them. We pick up #5 and #13 in 2022 and are still a 20 win team. And we are still left hoping Case plus Mr X from the '23 draft will be the saviors once they play together -- but the expectation anything they do in the draft changes things has to fade after watching the last two drafts have zero impact on win totals. It's great to be able to say you have these nice young players - but they're supposed to make a difference. and the THREE FIRST ROUND PICKS from his first draft (that he dealt multiple picks and players to obtain) have developed into nba bench players with limited upside. this should be the last year of the rebuild. if they get victor or scoot, it should be. if they dont, it will be a struggle. they will have a mountain of cap space, lets see what they do with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyMarsh Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 I agree that this needs to be the last year as bottom feeders and we need to start showing improvements both record wise and from an individual player standpoint. We haven't had many players get better with time here, it's like they either didn't grow or got worse the longer theyve been here and that's the big worry with me. I try to think positive though and just blame it on Casey and his staff and once they are gone things will get better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted February 10, 2023 Share Posted February 10, 2023 28 minutes ago, Deleterious said: Here is the hope. You hope he didn't develop because GS was in won now mode and couldn't dedicate the minutes to let him develope. Not sure I believe it. But that is the most positive spin I can put on it. That’s absolutely the play here. I think there’s an assumption that Bey has peaked and he is what he’ll be. Meanwhile, here’s Wiseman who is 7’ and young. They must think there’s untapped potential there still. I don’t know. They somewhat salvaged Christian Wood. It seems like they were having a little success with Bagley, and then he remembered that he’s brittle. They’ve done nothing with Noel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted February 10, 2023 Share Posted February 10, 2023 8 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said: I agree that this needs to be the last year as bottom feeders and we need to start showing improvements both record wise and from an individual player standpoint. We haven't had many players get better with time here, it's like they either didn't grow or got worse the longer theyve been here and that's the big worry with me. I try to think positive though and just blame it on Casey and his staff and once they are gone things will get better. Ok, but Weaver is also in charge of the coaching staff. So if there are issues with coaching staff, it’s inexcusable to not make changes there considering they amount of youth they’ve brought in and the need to develop it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyMarsh Posted February 10, 2023 Share Posted February 10, 2023 2 minutes ago, casimir said: Ok, but Weaver is also in charge of the coaching staff. So if there are issues with coaching staff, it’s inexcusable to not make changes there considering they amount of youth they’ve brought in and the need to develop it. True and admittedly I'm trying to give him the benefit of the doubt but I think he's been apprehensive about making a change cause he knows we aren't in position to compete yet and he doesn't want to throw a young coach in a position where they are going to fail. He basically knows that at the very least with Casey there likely isn't going to be any locker room or off the court issues because the players respect him. Essentially he's like a well paid babysitter at this point in my eyes and if/when the team is ready to take that next step they will bring in a new staff...... atleast thats my hope anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hart Posted February 10, 2023 Share Posted February 10, 2023 1 hour ago, RandyMarsh said: The only reason I don't question Weaver more is that we don't really know what the end game is and what the objective is. Like for all we know the end game in 2020 was to completely tank for 3 years then start to compete in 2023-24 and that's why we still have Casey and give a bunch of minutes to old vets. If that was the plan then we ended up with Cade, Ivey, Duren, Wiseman, Stew, the 23 1st and the dependable vet in Bogey to start to compete with, in which case were not far off from the plan. Hopefully we get a new coach as well and if we do I think we can be in the bottom of the playoffs next year and hopefully continue to grow and get better from there. I am not saying fire Weaver but I am saying next year is a big deal in evaluating him. Regardless of who we draft, we need to see a good deal of progress from the current young guys that are already here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted February 10, 2023 Share Posted February 10, 2023 53 minutes ago, Deleterious said: Here is the hope. You hope he didn't develop because GS was in won now mode and couldn't dedicate the minutes to let him develope. Not sure I believe it. But that is the most positive spin I can put on it. The other issue is he's been injured so much. We hope he can get past all the injuries and get onto the floor enough to develop properly... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted February 10, 2023 Share Posted February 10, 2023 36 minutes ago, buddha said: ... if they don't, it will be a struggle... The only point I would disagree with is this one, I think even if we fall to 3-4-5 that there are 3 significant players who have skill-sets that we are missing and therefore also give us a huge boost. I don't want to agree that we'll struggle next year. Any of the top 5 players in this draft help this team immensely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted February 10, 2023 Share Posted February 10, 2023 5 minutes ago, Hart said: I am not saying fire Weaver but I am saying next year is a big deal in evaluating him. Regardless of who we draft, we need to see a good deal of progress from the current young guys that are already here. Yup, that’s fair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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