chasfh Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 25 minutes ago, oblong said: Miggy does too.... I have a feeling that once Miggy retires, Detroit will be firmly in his rearview mirror, and he will contemplate us only once more. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 31 minutes ago, oblong said: It's also good counterpoints to the "Just sign someone to be respectable" crowd. Any player that would make you respectable just by signing a FA deal will either cost too much... or has 20 other teams coming after him. Good players aren't just sitting on a shelf waiting to be added to the shopping cart. The other part about the "sign someone to be respectable" type of free agents are the years they were commanding on this past years market.... @chasfh has commented on this a lot and it's true. Tucker Barnhart, who we all wanted to shoot into the sun for most of last year, commanded a two year deal FFS. Even still within the fold, you would think that things like living out the remainder of Jon Schoop's two year deal would maybe be a cautionary tale as well. But I digress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 43 minutes ago, oblong said: That's why the "Ilitch was a great owner" statements need context. It was a double edged sword. There's a difference between "I'm willing to spend" and "I want you to spend on this guy". It's pretty obvious that Fielder wasn't on DD's radar based on his comments a few days prior to the signing. Ilitch got too attached and sentimental to his players. He did that with the Red Wings too. Young player scores a big playoff goal? They're a Red Wing for life. It's also good counterpoints to the "Just sign someone to be respectable" crowd. Any player that would make you respectable just by signing a FA deal will either cost too much... or has 20 other teams coming after him. Good players aren't just sitting on a shelf waiting to be added to the shopping cart. I don't know. It seems like the relief pitching market cascades into the late offseason. Maybe I'm wrong on that. But it seems like piecing together a respectable bullpen later is possible. The rest of the team, yeah, you're probably right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 (edited) 8 minutes ago, casimir said: I don't know. It seems like the relief pitching market cascades into the late offseason. Maybe I'm wrong on that. But it seems like piecing together a respectable bullpen later is possible. The rest of the team, yeah, you're probably right. The bullpen cascaded late, but there was still competition over pieces and they still do have agency. The other thing worth mentioning here is that, particularly with Chafin and Fulmer given that they are the dudes people are focused most on, we don't exactly know what the team did or didn't do with whatever contacts they had. There was reporting that Chafin and the Tigers were in contact, but how do we know that the nature of that contact wasn't "thanks, but I'd like to shop around"... with Fulmer, they didn't inquire, but maybe there was some sort of backchannel communication that he wouldn't be interested in coming back? I don't know that it's an excuse for how bad the bullpen has performed to date, but I do think we need to be open to the idea that maybe Chafin/Fulmer weren't just there for the taking as well. It was reported late that they were in contact with Will Smith, and he would have been a nice get but that didn't happen for some reason. Edited April 13, 2023 by mtutiger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 3 minutes ago, mtutiger said: The other part about the "sign someone to be respectable" type of free agents are the years they were commanding on this past years market.... @chasfh has commented on this a lot and it's true. Tucker Barnhart, who we all wanted to shoot into the sun for most of last year, commanded a two year deal FFS. Even still within the fold, you would think that things like living out the remainder of Jon Schoop's two year deal would maybe be a cautionary tale as well. But I digress. Yes, we have gone over this a few times here... It may be more than trying to add 1-2 MLB FAs per say ex for the line-up, BP, etc. to be more respectable. There are going to be injuries and if you have nothing but AA players filling in for AAAA types you are asking for trouble, so there is the idea of depth. Then, the 'potential' building blocks (Greene, Tork, etc.) need some pressure taken off them. If not it just continues - yet, that is why we have AMeadows, Baez, Schoop, Haase and Miggy. With said Baez & Haase have been very slow so far. Schoop has given indications now for over a year of less production... Miggy, as you said, is a shell of his past self - but can still hit a bit at times. Meadows gave indications of his struggles last year (best to him and his family as health is first and hopefully he can come back even if sporadic, and contribute, but he may need time at AAA). The other thought is perpetual losing builds a psyche that can snowball. I feel that happened with some of the last group (Castro's, Reyes, Goodrum, JJones, Candy, etc. - that and the talent base of course). Do a couple FAs solve this - IMHO, of course not. The players also have to choose - if they want to come here as well - and I still feel we tried on a couple, but 'no go'. We can hope we still get some production from the list mentioned and that would be more than what has gone on so far - (ex Schoop, Baez, Haaase, etc.). Sooner or later they will have to add another 'guy' or two. Some of the Minnesota players, so I read somewhere, said CCorrea changes the attitude in the clubhouse to expect more, to win - of course where did they finish last year? and the oppo is look at what Cleveland did, one of the youngest teams in the game, but they are fundamentally very sound. I like Vierling, but that 'no' slide into second base was inexcusable. He had that base stolen with Maton at the plate. Haase running on a ground ball right in front of him, taking him out of scoring position - again no excuse. These things have to change. Maybe 1 or so every 4-5 games - but 2 in 3 innings? I, like many here feel, they are a bit better than what has been seen thus far - but they have to 'play' the game smarter (manager included) and some need to step it up. Go Tigs... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 If Al Avila could piece together a decent BP the last couple of years on bad teams with a known poor FO and no prospects I'm not sure why there is grounds to give Harris a pass. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 5 minutes ago, alex said: I like Vierling I'm pretty skeptical of Vierling so far - he's seem the re-incarnation of Harold Castro: shows you enough to be interesting but can't make the play that needs making or makes the critical mistake at the critical time too often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 Alex's post gets me thinking: I wonder how much Miggy influences the team, their levels of concentration and effort, and their relationship with the manager and coaches? I'm not suggesting anything concrete, but I gotta believe that a slam-dunk Hall of Fame elder on any team has got to have a tremendous influence on the other guys, particularly the young guys. I don't have any real feel for whether the rest of the team would be any better, any worse, or the exact same were Miggy not on the team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 (edited) 7 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: If Al Avila could piece together a decent BP the last couple of years on bad teams with a known poor FO and no prospects I'm not sure why there is grounds to give Harris a pass. Al Avila also pieced them together largely without free agency - Chafin was the exception rather than the norm, and really a likely reason that happened was because they he felt he was at the periphery of contention. Which kinda drives the point home - in order for this team to have more success in the free agent market, they are going to have to have a better story to sell players on. You could sort of see it in 2022 given how they played during most of 2021. You can't see that now at all. Edited April 13, 2023 by mtutiger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdog Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 (edited) The willingness to light a season on fire to either save money or 'evaluate your roster' is what we have. The damage that does to fan interest and belief in your product is bad news for ths franchise. So yes, signing a few presentable mlb players probably doesn't mean much in the long term. But if you are 5-8 and have a passable bullpen, people are more willing to buy the company line that a turnaround is near. It's cosmetic...but if that's alternative to anger and apathy towards this organization, I'll take it. Ilitch let this organization wither into where it is now. And he was perfectly willing to along with his new gm and allow this season to be another throwaway. And we really don't know how much losing does to damage player development. Edited April 13, 2023 by kdog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 (edited) 3 minutes ago, kdog said: The willingness to light a season on fire to either save money or 'evaluate your roster' is what we have. The damage that does to fan interest and belief in your product is bad news for ths franchise. If they manage to find themselves somehow contending in a few years, will fan interest in this team at this particular moment matter at all? The lows of the Randy Smith/Early DD years didn't seem to have much of an impact on fan interest whenever they turned it around in 2006. I'm not sure I understand the case for how this situation is much different. Edited April 13, 2023 by mtutiger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenacious D Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 1 hour ago, oblong said: That's why the "Ilitch was a great owner" statements need context. It was a double edged sword. There's a difference between "I'm willing to spend" and "I want you to spend on this guy". It's pretty obvious that Fielder wasn't on DD's radar based on his comments a few days prior to the signing. Ilitch got too attached and sentimental to his players. He did that with the Red Wings too. Young player scores a big playoff goal? They're a Red Wing for life. It's also good counterpoints to the "Just sign someone to be respectable" crowd. Any player that would make you respectable just by signing a FA deal will either cost too much... or has 20 other teams coming after him. Good players aren't just sitting on a shelf waiting to be added to the shopping cart. Let’s face it—Mike’s health was failing (it was fairly common knowledge), and he made some decisions that maybe weren’t ROI or bottom line driven, but born out of emotion. I’m sure he wanted a WS before he died and became even more sentimental and loyal to those he cared about. This led to some exciting seasons for Tigers fans, even if the team came up short. But also forced the team to find AB’s for declining players like Victor and Miggy. The 2006-2013 stretch was the best sustained period of Tigers baseball over the last 70 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyMarsh Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 4 minutes ago, mtutiger said: If they manage to find themselves somehow contending in a few years, will fan interest in this team at this particular moment matter at all? The lows of the Randy Smith/Early DD years didn't seem to have much of an impact on fan interest whenever they turned it around in 2006. I'm not sure I understand the case for how this situation is much different. Nope it won't matter, if/ when we ever become good people will come out in droves to watch and celebrate the team just like they did in for the Tigers in 06, did for the Wings in the 90s and do for the Lions whenever they have one of their rare good season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 8 minutes ago, mtutiger said: Al Avila also pieced them together largely without free agency - Chafin was the exception rather than the norm, and really a likely reason that happened was because they he felt he was at the periphery of contention. what hurts now is that Jimenez is gone and Malloy is sitting in the minors. Now if Malloy develops the trade is still a plus, but for now it isn't helping. Soto for Maton and Vierling the jury is out. Don't think Vierling is much of an add over the guys already in the system like Baddoo. The question for that trade is the marginal value of Maton over say Kreidler. If you gave up Soto for Maton and Kreidler could have provided near the same value, you made a mistake. Jury out on that obviously - Maton is showing some plus signs in the power dept. And BTW, those laughing over the initial bad outing by Soto with his new team may be less entertained to know he is looking better now. Jimenez is walking too many and had a bad night last night but 4 of 5 outings with no ER. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 11 minutes ago, mtutiger said: I'm not sure I understand the case for how this situation is much different. a full generation of baseball fans has died out of the fanbase since then and the incoming generation starts from a position of caring a lot less about baseball, if at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdog Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 11 minutes ago, mtutiger said: If they manage to find themselves somehow contending in a few years, will fan interest in this team at this particular moment matter at all? The lows of the Randy Smith/Early DD years didn't seem to have much of an impact on fan interest whenever they turned it around in 2006. I'm not sure I understand the case for how this situation is much different. I'm talking about now and probably next year with what we have. The 100 people on this message board care about the team. But nobody else does. And if they turn around, it doesn't matter right? But they utter lack of aggression to even make the team better is infuriating. That is after they subjected us to the Avila rebuild. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 2 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: a full generation of baseball fans has died out of the fanbase since then and the incoming generation starts from a position of caring a lot less about baseball, if at all? True story: the first time I went to a Houston Astros game was in the summer of 2012. Sunday afternoon. They were horrific... paid attendance was a little over 7,000. Today? They are far and away the most popular thing in town. Winning cures a lot of ills... 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 4 minutes ago, mtutiger said: True story: the first time I went to a Houston Astros game was in the summer of 2012. Sunday afternoon. They were horrific... paid attendance was a little over 7,000. Today? They are far and away the most popular thing in town. Winning cures a lot of ills... That's fair, but Houston's market is a lot bigger than Detroit's now so they can fill the orange juice can on less interest as a percentage of population. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 1 minute ago, gehringer_2 said: That's fair, but Houston's market is a lot bigger than Detroit's now so they can fill the orange juice can on less interest as a percentage of population. Yeah, we disagree there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 (edited) 5 minutes ago, mtutiger said: Yeah, we disagree there well, lets just say that taking your fan base for granted is a risk. The other thing is that they will *have* to fix the TV broadcast before they get better. Really part of the same issue wrt respecting the fanbase when an org decides to put out a horrible broadcast like the Tigers have. Edited April 13, 2023 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 9 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: well, lets just say that taking your fan base for granted is a risk. I think where the big disagreement here is that there are have been a lot of declarations about how they handled free agency, how aggressive they were, etc. Yet for me, so much of that line of thinking is based on assumptions or lack of hard evidence Like, I don't know for a fact that they didn't try to sign relievers this offseason more than maybe they did try but players chose to sign elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdog Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 The tv broadcast crew is about saving money...that can't be denied. With the paradigm shifting for Bally's and the bankruptcy, I don't think that will change soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted April 13, 2023 Author Share Posted April 13, 2023 The TV broadcast is low on my wish list for this organization. I realize it's not an issue of resources used to fix that vs the players but.... I'm not watching much anyway. I have it on as filler or just check my phone while watching something else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 29 minutes ago, mtutiger said: Like, I don't know for a fact that they didn't try to sign relievers this offseason more than maybe they did try but players chose to sign elsewhere. ABC Persuading players and closing the deal is part of Harris' mandate. As Blake would say "You close - or you hit the bricks!" 😎 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, mtutiger said: Which kinda drives the point home - in order for this team to have more success in the free agent market, they are going to have to have a better story to sell players on. You could sort of see it in 2022 given how they played during most of 2021. You can't see that now at all. Yes, a very good point. The team has to get to this marker. They did it in '21 with development of Mize, Skubal, Manning, Haase, etc.... it looked like Grossman, Candy and Baddoo, etc. could do close to or the same for '22 and hence they added several, what looked like, 'key' players. Whatever the core is now - they really need to uptick their game (and/or development) and then you may be able to add to it as other players could see a 'vision'. That along with further development of a few more younger players (Keith, PMeadows, Flores, and/or whomever surprise... along with a sound draft). The management has to have a vision of what they wish to try to accomplish. I do have one major concern - and I have said it many times here 'depth' because of the many injuries in the game today, all around the league. It is more important than ever before. So, in other words the adage 'luck' is always a factor. As JLeyland used to say 'Your best ability is your availability' and paraphrasing on his next one 'The team with the most healthy good players will almost always do well.' Edited April 13, 2023 by alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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