2023 Detroit Tigers Regular Season Discussion Thread

[buddha]

it is almost a certainty that paredes would not have developed here the way he has in tampa bay.  that organization is well run and develops its players well.

the tigers under al avila were a garbage organization at all levels.  only mike illitch's money and dave dombrowski's magic made the team good.

remember all the articles about al revamping the organization and bringing in analytics?  lol.  that worked real well.

[mtutiger]

19 minutes ago, casimir said:

The other aspect is Paredes' development itself.  Would he be best served in Tampa or Detroit?  Which organization has been better at developing young players?  Which situation would have been more amenable to his development?

Exactly. This is the underdiscussed part of that trade to me... sure, the trade makes Al look like a dingus because of the production differential between the two players, but what does it say about the org at that time that they couldn't unlock anything remotely looking like the player Tampa got during his time there? Or that they maybe even didn't give him the opportunities to show it at the MLB level?

To me, the Rays bear some responsibility for that, and that is to their credit. One hopes this org can start emulating their success in getting the most out of players.

Edited April 12, 2023 by mtutiger

[gehringer_2]

10 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

but what does it say about the org at that time that they couldn't unlock anything remotely looking like the player Tampa got during his time there? Or that they maybe even didn't give him the opportunities to show it at the MLB level.

IDK - Paredes was pretty well unlocked in his last season at Toledo with an 845 OPS and even starting to show power at a HR per 30 PA. The problem was only when he got to the Detroit dugout. The problem the tigers had with Paredes was only with the last step - bringing him from AAA to Detroit. I don't know what that means/implies about the org as a whole but I'm not sure it's accurate to dump on the whole develop chain in his case.

Edited April 12, 2023 by gehringer_2

[Jim Cowan]

I like Paredes and I hope he does well, but let's not send him to Cooperstown just yet. Last year other than an impossible 11 game streak in which he hit 8 home runs his results were pretty much exactly the same as his Tigers performance.  He's off to a decent start this year but I would wait to see a full season of good performance.

Count me among those who were pleasantly surprised that the Tigers got Meadows for him.

[mtutiger]

8 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

IDK - Paredes was pretty well unlocked in his last season at Toledo with an 845 OPS and even starting to show power at a HR per 30 PA. The problem was only when he got to the Detroit dugout. The problem the tigers had with Paredes was only with the last step - bringing him from AAA to Detroit. I don't know what that means/implies about the org as a whole but I'm not sure it's accurate to dump on the whole develop chain in his case.

If they felt like the guy currently in Tampa was something they could have, I doubt that they would struggled so much with "the last step." Or have done the trade

[SoCalTiger]

2 hours ago, casimir said:

I wonder if Harris would make that same trade.  MeadowsA was certainly the more known quantity and the production he had shown would have certainly been helpful.  Paredes seemed to be more of the "control the strike zone" kind of hitter that Harris speaks of, at least if you take a generic look at SO% and BB%.

Regardless, the deal was made, here we are, where can Harris take it from here?

No way. Paredes minor league BB/SO were good and the low sandwich draft pick is very valuable to new era GM's/POBO's. God bless Meadows but he was clearly declining in power and defense while ascending in cost.

[gehringer_2]

11 hours ago, RandyMarsh said:

That's better news than I expected. I figured he'd be gone for the year but until he fully recovers from the procedure I'm not gonna think we're out of the woods. 

Brieske isn't an ace or anything but he could end up being an upgrade over the junk we're throwing out there. 

So I hate to make fun of our local hacks.....not!

McCosky's story about Brieske today - I'll give him credit for describing the procedure Beau had, but then he drops this tidbit:

Quote

The encouraging part is it was a minimally-invasive procedure and not ulnar nerve replacement surgery, also known as Tommy John surgery. 

LOL - you'd think a baseball writer, esp one in Det, would know what TJ surgery is by now, or know the difference between a nerve and a ligament, or know how to use Google.  Keep trying Chris - you'll get there.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/mlb/tigers/2023/04/11/tigers-brieske-has-hydro-procedure-on-ailing-arm-bez-dropped-in-batting-order/70103480007/

[theroundsquare]

wow

[tiger2022]

It feels like the early 90s all over again... 

Terrible roster construction.  At least the pitching was serviceable to good last year.  Not so much the beginning of this year.

 

[tiger2022]

On 4/10/2023 at 3:32 PM, SoCalTiger said:

Anxiety is indeed very real.

It is indeed.  Everybody has anxiety, the difference is normal people have to just deal with it.  They can't take years off from work because they just feel like it and expect their employer to just pay them.  

I feel bad for him but also see him as entitled at the same time because his anxiety over baseball seems so trivial compared to the anxiety that people in 3rd world countries feel 24/7 with just surviving.

   

[chasfh]

4 hours ago, buddha said:

remember all the articles about al revamping the organization and bringing in analytics?  lol.  that worked real well.

It was known back way back when.

 

 

[SoCalTiger]

45 minutes ago, tiger2022 said:

It is indeed.  Everybody has anxiety, the difference is normal people have to just deal with it.  They can't take years off from work because they just feel like it and expect their employer to just pay them.  

I feel bad for him but also see him as entitled at the same time because his anxiety over baseball seems so trivial compared to the anxiety that people in 3rd world countries feel 24/7 with just surviving.

   

I think it’s possible you are confusing clinical diagnosed anxiety with normal anxiety.  It’s the brain not the geography. 

[chasfh]

4 hours ago, Jim Cowan said:

I like Paredes and I hope he does well, but let's not send him to Cooperstown just yet. Last year other than an impossible 11 game streak in which he hit 8 home runs his results were pretty much exactly the same as his Tigers performance.  He's off to a decent start this year but I would wait to see a full season of good performance.

Count me among those who were pleasantly surprised that the Tigers got Meadows for him.

I wasn't. I thought we gave up too much. But I also thought it was better that we got someone to start on the big league club than to keep Paredes languishing away in Toledo.

[buddha]

6 minutes ago, chasfh said:

It was known back way back when.

 

 

i will forever regard chris illitch as incompetent for his keeping avila in that job once his dad died.  it seemed obvious to every outsider that he was awful at his job.  the idea that he was going to build a modern analytics department is laughable.  and we see the results now.

him picking jobe because he found out about "spin rate" that year is al's last laugh on the organization.

 

[oblong]

What turns me off the most is the endless marketing hype when the team and players are bad. I know they have to do it but it looks bad.  They had a thing last week on the scoreboard where Baez was explaining all of his tattoos. It’s meant as fun but when the dude is playing like total shit then we don’t care.  Baez is Juan Gonzalez’s revenge. We got away with one back then but it came back to bite us now. 

[RandyMarsh]

I mean this isn't something that we already didn't know but sometimes I forget just how bad it's been with us and big contracts. 

Victor's 2nd contract 

Miggys 2nd

Zimmermann 

Upton(dodged a bullet by trading him)

Fielder(even bigger bullet dodged)

Baez

E-Rod(he has atleast shown signs of life this year)

I mean between them we have spent well over a half billion dollars and I imagine they combined for under 10 WAR and maybe even worse.

Its just unfathomable the roi we've gotten on multi year FA deals in the past decade or so, it just doesn't seem possible to spend that much and get so little. 

 

Edited April 13, 2023 by RandyMarsh

[mtutiger]

11 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

I mean this isn't something that we already didn't know but sometimes I forget just how bad it's been with us and big contracts. 

Victor's 2nd contract 

Miggys 2nd

Zimmermann 

Upton(dodged a bullet by trading him)

Fielder(even bigger bullet dodged)

Baez

E-Rod(he has atleast shown signs of life this year)

I mean between them we have spent well over a half billion dollars and I imagine they combined for under 10 WAR and maybe even worse.

Its just unfathomable the roi we've gotten on multi year FA deals in the past decade or so, it just doesn't seem possible to spend that much and get so little. 

 

E-Rod will be OK and will probably pitch well enough to be traded and/or opt out.

But with the others, as much as people complain about the lack of big-time free agent activity, they are also cautionary tales about how free agents are not a panacea nor a substitute for building a good foundation for a team. 

[Hongbit]

There has got to be a way to work out a trade with the Marlins and let Miggy have a half season goodbye tour with his original team.   I’ve got to think this would be amenable by all sides at some point this season.    

[casimir]

34 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

I mean this isn't something that we already didn't know but sometimes I forget just how bad it's been with us and big contracts. 

Victor's 2nd contract 

Miggys 2nd

Zimmermann 

Upton(dodged a bullet by trading him)

Fielder(even bigger bullet dodged)

Baez

E-Rod(he has atleast shown signs of life this year)

I mean between them we have spent well over a half billion dollars and I imagine they combined for under 10 WAR and maybe even worse.

Its just unfathomable the roi we've gotten on multi year FA deals in the past decade or so, it just doesn't seem possible to spend that much and get so little. 

 

I think its worth noting a few of these are drunk sailor spending contracts.  Cabrera's 2nd and Fielder's were largely at IlitchM's behest.  Not sure if MartinezV's 2nd contract was also IlitchM's doing or not.

You're right about ROI via FA.  Generally there isn't a good ROI there if you're looking at it in terms of salary.  But a good team isn't built solely on FA.  The next competitive Tiger team is probably going to have to have a base of good young controllable talent with which to add FA to.  The Tigers simply haven't done that in years.

[Motor City Sonics]

This team is so bad that if they devised a way of cheating like the Astros and knew what pitches were coming they still wouldn't hit league average.   

[chasfh]

59 minutes ago, Hongbit said:

There has got to be a way to work out a trade with the Marlins and let Miggy have a half season goodbye tour with his original team.   I’ve got to think this would be amenable by all sides at some point this season.    

I really like this idea and will wish upon a star until it happens.

[oblong]

1 minute ago, chasfh said:

I really like this idea and will wish upon a star until it happens.

Miggy does too....

 

[mtutiger]

30 minutes ago, casimir said:

You're right about ROI via FA.  Generally there isn't a good ROI there if you're looking at it in terms of salary.  But a good team isn't built solely on FA.  The next competitive Tiger team is probably going to have to have a base of good young controllable talent with which to add FA to.  The Tigers simply haven't done that in years.

The other thing about free agency is the last word: "agency"

A team can get out there and make competitive offers on players to try to get them to come to your team, but players have agency and aren't obliged to agree to a deal regardless of how aggressive you are on the market.

Even with the top of mind discussion about relievers after last night's game, for all the "Idiot Harris didn't resign Chafin/Fulmer" comments, is it even clear that either would come back here? Particularly Chafin, who accepted less than last year to pitch in AZ?

Fans generally seem to treat free agency like it's rolling down to Kroger and buying a bottle of ketchup... it's maybe more like buying a house, especially these days. Just because you put in an offer doesn't mean it's gonna be accepted.

[oblong]

39 minutes ago, casimir said:

I think its worth noting a few of these are drunk sailor spending contracts.  Cabrera's 2nd and Fielder's were largely at IlitchM's behest.  Not sure if MartinezV's 2nd contract was also IlitchM's doing or not.

You're right about ROI via FA.  Generally there isn't a good ROI there if you're looking at it in terms of salary.  But a good team isn't built solely on FA.  The next competitive Tiger team is probably going to have to have a base of good young controllable talent with which to add FA to.  The Tigers simply haven't done that in years.

That's why the "Ilitch was a great owner" statements need context. It was a double edged sword.  There's a difference between "I'm willing to spend" and "I want you to spend on this guy".  It's pretty obvious that Fielder wasn't on DD's radar based on his comments a few days prior to the signing. 

Ilitch got too attached and sentimental to his players.   He did that with the Red Wings too.  Young player scores a big playoff goal?  They're a Red Wing for life.

It's also good counterpoints to the "Just sign someone to be respectable" crowd.  Any player that would make you respectable just by signing a FA deal will either cost too much... or has 20 other teams coming after him.  Good players aren't just sitting on a shelf waiting to be added to the shopping cart.

 

 

 

[oblong]

6 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

The other thing about free agency is the last word: "agency"

A team can get out there and make competitive offers on players to try to get them to come to your team, but players have agency and aren't obliged to agree to a deal regardless of how aggressive you are on the market.

Even with the top of mind discussion about relievers after last night's game, for all the "Idiot Harris didn't resign Chafin/Fulmer" comments, is it even clear that either would come back here? Particularly Chafin, who accepted less than last year to pitch in AZ?

Fans generally seem to treat free agency like it's rolling down to Kroger and buying a bottle of ketchup... it's maybe more like buying a house, especially these days. Just because you put in an offer doesn't mean it's gonna be accepted.

This times 1000.  It's the #1 flaw with sports talk radio as every idiot that calls in things this is how it works.  "All they gotta do is...."

The classic example, which really happened, was in the 90's when a caller into WDFN (is that still a thing?) suggested the PIstons trade Terry Mills and Linsday Hunter for Chris Webber.  It became a legend.

Take my 4 pieces of junk and give me 1 piece of non junk. 

Aggressively sign this FA so that I can complain in 2 years that he's overpaid.