2023 Detroit Tigers Regular Season Discussion Thread

[kdog]

Lynn Henning talking down to fans and defending managment? shocking.

[kdog]

captain obvious on ESPN:

Quote

7. The Tigers aren't trying to win in 2023

Let's be honest here: That's the truth. Their only hope for respectability is for Greene and Torkelson to live up to their prospect hype, Javier Baez to bounce back, Austin Meadows to produce like he did for the Rays and for Miguel Cabrera to turn the clock back to 2013. We know one of those things isn't happening. Some of the other items are possible, but the Tigers hit .147 in this first series with 30 strikeouts and six walks, scoring just three runs. There's a chance the Tigers are again the worst offensive team in the majors like last season. I hope not; I'd love to see Greene and Torkelson develop into stars. If they don't, the rebuilding road is going to be even longer than new president of baseball operations Scott Harris is planning on.

I wonder if putting so much existential pressure on Greene and Tork has affected them mentally. If they don't develop into above average major leaguers, we are even more screwed.

Edited April 3, 2023 by kdog

[bobrob2004]

10 minutes ago, chasfh said:

That's fine, you can believe the media in your head versus the actual media and their journalism.

I also cannot find any information on Hinch's involvement in the hiring process.  I cannot find any information that suggests that Harris is going to be loyal to Hinch.  

I found this, which suggests that it was all Chris Ilitch in the hiring of Harris: https://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/mlb/tigers/2022/09/19/tigers-hire-giants-gm-scott-harris-president-baseball-operations/10428932002/

Quote

"Chris (Ilitch) did a incredibly thorough search," Hinch said. "He was tireless in trying to find our next leader and he landed an exceptional person, a deep thinker and an accomplished guy.

 

[chasfh]

7 minutes ago, bobrob2004 said:

I also cannot find any information on Hinch's involvement in the hiring process.  I cannot find any information that suggests that Harris is going to be loyal to Hinch.  

I found this, which suggests that it was all Chris Ilitch in the hiring of Harris: https://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/mlb/tigers/2022/09/19/tigers-hire-giants-gm-scott-harris-president-baseball-operations/10428932002/

 

And then there's this:

https://theathletic.com/3613278/2022/09/20/tigers-scott-harris-president-baseball-operations/

Quote

The A.J. Hinch factor

With the Tigers in Baltimore, manager A.J. Hinch was not present at Harris’ news conference. But Hinch was indeed involved in this hiring process, and despite the fact the two had never formally met before the search began, Hinch has expressed excitement about Harris’ hiring.

But again, feel free to discard this and believe whatever you want.

Also, feel free to root for A.J.'s dismissal. I think you'll be disappointed, though.

[mtutiger]

I don't know how much Hinch was involved in the search process in finding Harris or not, I suspect that it was somewhat independent because the team wouldn't have wanted the appearance of Hinch getting one of his guys / tail wagging the dog, nor should they have tbh. (EDIT: Chas' post kinda confirms this, forgot Cody's reporting above)

Having said that, while I know that both Hinch/Harris are likely both circumspect people and know how to talk to the press, there hasn't been even an inkling of suggestion of dissent between the two of them. They appear to be more of a partnership to me that Hinch/Avila ever were, which is probably a good thing in the grand scheme of things. The issue that we are dealing with here is that the foundation of this franchise is shaky, and it will take time to fix that. It wasn't going to be fixed in one offseason. One imagines that both Hinch and Harris are clear eyed on that; I don't think Hinch came into 2023 thinking this would be an easy job.

Edited April 3, 2023 by mtutiger

[kdog]

It is a shame that Ilitch hired Hinch and made him work with Avila for 1.5 seasons. The damage that Avila continued to do buried us deeper in this abyss.

I think Hinch and Harris are more or less tied at the hip. Hinch will leave on his own volition if he thinks this is another 5-6 year project. But right now, I think they both agree on the trajectory of the org.

[casimir]

35 minutes ago, Toddwert said:

you got wonder how much Hinchs multiple lineups and platooning might effect players getting consistent AB and getting into a groove  especially with younger guys

After 3 games?

[bobrob2004]

11 minutes ago, chasfh said:

And then there's this:

https://theathletic.com/3613278/2022/09/20/tigers-scott-harris-president-baseball-operations/

But again, feel free to discard this and believe whatever you want.

Also, feel free to root for A.J.'s dismissal. I think you'll be disappointed, though.

I'm not rooting for that.  I want the Tigers to win and if Hinch does that, then it's all good.  I just don't have much confidence in that.  

[bobrob2004]

2 minutes ago, casimir said:

After 3 games?

HInch had all Spring Training to find a consistent lineup and we had three very radical lineups so far.  Why is he still managing like it's Spring Training?  

[chasfh]

1 minute ago, bobrob2004 said:

I'm not rooting for that.  I want the Tigers to win and if Hinch does that, then it's all good.  I just don't have much confidence in that.  

OK, that's cool.

I'm not saying at all this is definitely you, and at the risk of going a little out of bounds here, there is a general populist movement to dismiss everything all media reports as being fake. And in some cases that's true, particularly when people try to pass off opinion or ideology as being verifiable fact. But I think that happens only in cases for which there is a clear incentive to lie, and I just don't see the Detroit sports media's incentive to lie on behalf of the organization on the specific question of whether Hinch was involved in Harris's hiring—as though the organization would want to lead fans to believe that Hinch was involved when in fact he had zero involvement. What would be their incentive to make that happen? And how would Hinch, presumably a trusted agent of change for the team, agree to forfeit his actual agency and allow that? I can't fathom any incentive for him to do this, either.

[chasfh]

5 minutes ago, bobrob2004 said:

HInch had all Spring Training to find a consistent lineup and we had three very radical lineups so far.  Why is he still managing like it's Spring Training?  

We simply don't have eight everyday players Hinch can run out there night after night. Blame him, blame Harris, blame Avila, blame Ilitch, blame anyone and everyone, but that's the fact, and A.J. can't reasonably pretend otherwise.

[SoCalTiger]

I think Hinch is solidly in place as manager but his honeymoon time is over. When G2 mentioned "over coaching" the large gong bell was ringing loudly. But the real problem is talent. We have very little in my "fan" estimation and I am afraid we are closer to the beginning of a rebuild than the end which literally makes me want to cry. Skuball (hurt) - Greene- Baez- can be called stars or soon to be. Three. Mize-Manning-sorry average at best. Rogers-Maton-Verling-Rodrigues-Lange-Boyd look potentially to be above average MLB players. Slightly above. Meadows has lost his power. If he finds it then add him to above average player but no longer a star. Torkelson is a groundball machine and for me, my hopefully wrong opinion, is a dime a dozen first baseman that can be had most every off season for 3 to 5 million. Of all the players that seem to be over coached he is number one. 

In the minors we have one dude that is a potential two way star- Parker Meadows. Mallory and Keith Ala Carpenter can hit but where do they play ? Jobe-forget it. Al Avila made a huge mess and Chris Illitch trusted him foolishly. Harris is a great hire but he has mountain to climb. Going to be a while. The Tampa series showed how over matched they really are and there are many teams better than tampa.

[kdog]

They had one of the worst mlb offenses in recent memory last year. They brought in some guys on the margins(Vierling, Maton) and have basically run the rest of the lineup back.

If you want to blame Hinch for the same guys looking terrible through 3 games, that's ok with me. And you can also blame him for not demanding more immediate upgrades.

But this is the roster he was given. It's a substandard offensive roster even if some performance reverts back to career norms.

[bobrob2004]

6 minutes ago, chasfh said:

OK, that's cool.

I'm not saying at all this is definitely you, and at the risk of going a little out of bounds here, there is a general populist movement to dismiss everything all media reports as being fake. And in some cases that's true, particularly when people try to pass off opinion or ideology as being verifiable fact. But I think that happens only in cases for which there is a clear incentive to lie, and I just don't see the Detroit sports media's incentive to lie on behalf of the organization on the specific question of whether Hinch was involved in Harris's hiring—as though the organization would want to lead fans to believe that Hinch was involved when in fact he had zero involvement. What would be their incentive to make that happen? And how would Hinch, presumably a trusted agent of change for the team, agree to forfeit his actual agency and allow that? I can't fathom any incentive for him to do this, either.

I don't think there was a lie.  Your quote was very vague in Hinch's involvement.  I do believe he was in the room when they decision was made and that he expressed who he wanted to be hired.  However, I still fail to see the sense of loyalty between Harris and Hinch in the fact that Harris will feel obligated to keep Hinch on as the manager.  If Hinch doesn't impress Harris with his managing this year, I think he'll fire him.  

[kdog]

Hinch was in the room because Ilitch saddled him with Avila for a year and a half. He had some leverage because the team and org got worse.

He also has some significant influence on player development. I'm sure he feels a lot better about things with a seemingly competent executive team. But we'll see.

[chasfh]

15 minutes ago, SoCalTiger said:

I think Hinch is solidly in place as manager but his honeymoon time is over.

I don't believe this is true at all. Assuming there's no personal fallout between him and Harris, Hinch's honeymoon won't be over until he is given the players that he is expected to contend with and then fails to do so. Until that happens, Hinch won't get fired even if the team ends up losing 105 games this year. What would be the point of firing him over that? It's not as though they could give this exact same team to, for example, Jim Leyland and expect him to win with them in a way Hinch can't.

Edited April 3, 2023 by chasfh

[mtutiger]

17 minutes ago, SoCalTiger said:

In the minors we have one dude that is a potential two way star- Parker Meadows. Mallory and Keith Ala Carpenter can hit but where do they play ? Jobe-forget it. Al Avila made a huge mess and Chris Illitch trusted him foolishly. Harris is a great hire but he has mountain to climb. Going to be a while. The Tampa series showed how over matched they really are and there are many teams better than tampa.

Just in general, the focus on tanking for draft picks that Avila pursued just papered over the need for an org to just produce players from the more rank and file prospects as well

Think Cleveland or St. Louis.... sure, they've had some high draft picks come in (Jordan Walker this year for St. Louis), but they also are good because they are able to develop guys who aren't Top 100 guys and have them come onto their team and produce. At the moment, we are kinda left hoping that some of the reclamation projects and hangers on from the Avila days (ie. Meadows, Lipcius, Wenceel Perez) can fill that role. And there's plenty of reason to be cynical about that until we see them produce in the big leagues and until the new regime can insert more pieces into the system.

Edited April 3, 2023 by mtutiger

[kdog]

We have to get on base...but this is nice to see:

 

[chasfh]

3 minutes ago, kdog said:

We have to get on base...but this is nice to see:

 

It's nice to be in the top half of the league in something positive for a change!

[bobrob2004]

6 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I don't believe this is true at all. Assuming there's no personal fallout between him and Harris, Hinch's honeymoon won't be over until he is given the players that he is expected to contend with and then fails to do so. Until that happens, Hinch won't get fired even if the team ends up losing 105 games this year. What would be the point of firing him over that? It's not as though they could give this exact same team to, for example, Jim Leyland and expect him to win with them in a way Hinch can't.

It's not the number of games that he loses, it's how he loses them that will determine it.  

[chasfh]

Just now, bobrob2004 said:

It's not the number of games that he loses, it's how he loses them that will determine it.  

I think the only way Harris fires Hinch is if Hinch goes off book and starts doing things that go against Harris's plans. Once that verifiably starts happening, I'll come around to your way of thinking on this.

If, for example, one of Harris's plans is to micromanage the lineup and have Hinch run the same eight guys out there night after night, but Hinch continues to mix and match anyway against Harris's will, then I see your point. But if Harris is giving Hinch free rein to run the team on the field as Hinch sees fit, then I just don't see Harris firing Hinch over something as low impact as failed mixing and matching—as though Hinch is losing scads of winnable games this talented team is playing.

[oblong]

4 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I don't believe this is true at all. Assuming there's no personal fallout between him and Harris, Hinch's honeymoon won't be over until he is given the players that he is expected to contend with and then fails to do so. Until that happens, Hinch won't get fired even if the team ends up losing 105 games this year. What would be the point of firing him over that? It's not as though they could give this exact same team to, for example, Jim Leyland and expect him to win with them in a way Hinch can't.

I'm at the point where Hinch's fate is tied to Harris's fate.  This is year 1 for Hinch.

Unless, as you say, they know something about his methods that we aren't privvy to, which is just speculation and worth as much.

 

[mtutiger]

9 minutes ago, oblong said:

I'm at the point where Hinch's fate is tied to Harris's fate.  This is year 1 for Hinch.

This is why I don't get the comments in other settings on the internet (shoutout to MTS, there may be disagreements, but it's more grounded here) about how Hinch is preparing to take the express out of town. Literally nothing about his comments after games this weekend or body language really showed that, but people tend to read whatever they want onto anything he says or does. No different than last year when people were saying the same stuff before Lynn Henning was outed for having misreported (invented?) AJ Hinch's optout.

My position hasn't changed on him, he's not above criticism even if the talent isn't where it needs to be. But realistically, no, I don't think he's on the hot seat, and I don't think he's leaving and am pretty sure he had an idea of how 2023 would go entering this season.

[KL2]

49 minutes ago, SoCalTiger said:

I think Hinch is solidly in place as manager but his honeymoon time is over. When G2 mentioned "over coaching" the large gong bell was ringing loudly. But the real problem is talent. We have very little in my "fan" estimation and I am afraid we are closer to the beginning of a rebuild than the end which literally makes me want to cry. Skuball (hurt) - Greene- Baez- can be called stars or soon to be. Three. Mize-Manning-sorry average at best. Rogers-Maton-Verling-Rodrigues-Lange-Boyd look potentially to be above average MLB players. Slightly above. Meadows has lost his power. If he finds it then add him to above average player but no longer a star. Torkelson is a groundball machine and for me, my hopefully wrong opinion, is a dime a dozen first baseman that can be had most every off season for 3 to 5 million. Of all the players that seem to be over coached he is number one. 

In the minors we have one dude that is a potential two way star- Parker Meadows. Mallory and Keith Ala Carpenter can hit but where do they play ? Jobe-forget it. Al Avila made a huge mess and Chris Illitch trusted him foolishly. Harris is a great hire but he has mountain to climb. Going to be a while. The Tampa series showed how over matched they really are and there are many teams better than tampa.

Torks ground ball rate, 42.3

League's rate: 44.9

[Edman85]

There is a lot less roster filler on the Erie roster than there has been the past decade. Worth pointing out...

When I talk about roster filler, I talk about minor league free agents with zero MLB hope in there to make sure they can field a team. That is one sign of farm health.

Edited April 3, 2023 by Edman85