04/02/2023 1:10pm EDT Detroit Tigers vs Tampa Bay Rays

[mtutiger]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

I think you know Soto and Jimenez were never going to return a major league regular. And Vierling and Maton are both better than replacement hitters, as evidenced by their positive oWARs.

I don't think we need to rehash the idea that good free agent hitters were never going to sign up to play here in 2023.

And even if they did, does the class of free agent hitter they would theoretically be competitive in attempting to sign (ie. Wil Myers, Brandon Drury) really change much? Would it really move the needle over these three games for instance?

There really isn't a way around them needing to get more production out of their young players and their vets, or needing to get production out of players who missed time in 2022 (ie. Turnbull, Meadows, Rogers). People want a cheat code, but it's going to take time to unravel the mess left behind from the previous regime.

Edited April 2, 2023 by mtutiger

[chasfh]

1 hour ago, Toddwert said:

maybe for you .... but its surprising how much better detroit looks if you spend a little extra 

Sure, pay a guy tens of millions of dollars more than he is worth and you can get him to play for anybody. But if you’re a team like the Tigers and you’re the top bidder by only a few million, you’re probably not getting the guy, because he is going to want to go someplace where he can win. I know that idea gets pooh-poohed around here a lot, but it’s true.

By the way, how does it feel the root for a team that can’t get anybody decent come play for them unless they dramatically overpay them? Maybe for you … but I don’t like it.

 

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

Was placing Foley in that situation this game evidence that we weren't playing to win? Is Foley an established quantity when it comes to leverage situations such that A.J. was guilty of managerial malfeasance?

More than Foley, I took from how you posted it that it doesn't really matter who Hinch plays when. If I got the feeling he was at that level of dismissal of game outcomes, I'd be checking out for of the rest of the season!

Edited April 2, 2023 by gehringer_2

[kdog]

11 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Sure, pay a guy tens of millions of dollars more than he is worth and you can get him to play for anybody. But if you’re a team like the Tigers and you’re the top bidder by only a few million, you’re probably not getting the guy, because he is going to want to go someplace where he can win. I know that idea gets pooh-poohed around here a lot, but it’s true.

By the way, how does it feel the root for a team that can’t get anybody decent come play for them unless they dramatically overpay them? Maybe for you … but I don’t like it.

 

The downside of endless tanking with a clueless executive. Players and agents are smarter than we all think. And now that we are out of the Boras business, you aren't geting any favors from him.

[Toddwert]

27 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Sure, pay a guy tens of millions of dollars more than he is worth and you can get him to play for anybody. But if you’re a team like the Tigers and you’re the top bidder by only a few million, you’re probably not getting the guy, because he is going to want to go someplace where he can win. I know that idea gets pooh-poohed around here a lot, but it’s true.

By the way, how does it feel the root for a team that can’t get anybody decent come play for them unless they dramatically overpay them? Maybe for you … but I don’t like it.

 

I dont have to like it  but its reality..... so if we dont sign any one then we develop players and unless im missing someone the great players in our system are on Tigers now. While probably decent players  neither one of them looks like a Julio Rodriguez or Bobby Witt Jr..  Im not saying building a team from free agents but you can add a player here and there to help. 

[mtutiger]

I'm still waiting to hear an example of a "throw a bone" type vet free agent that would have made much of a difference during this series.

[chasfh]

1 hour ago, Hongbit said:

Certainly not in January but I think they could’ve gotten much better players for Soto had they traded him at the deadline last year.  

As for Vierling and Maton, I don’t think there’s been an adequate sample size to make much of their prior stats.  I’m not sure either are much more than reserve utility guys at the major league level but we will find out for sure this season.  

They could not have gotten better players because Al Avila was behind the wheel. So we should be glad he wasn’t the guy to trade Soto.

I grant what you say about Vierling and Maton. I was responding to the assertion that they are subreplacement hitters. So far, they are not.

[Jim Cowan]

10 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

I'm still waiting to hear an example of a "throw a bone" type vet free agent that would have made much of a difference during this series.

Same here, there was some interest in Haniger among people here, but he's the only one I can think of.  I wasn't interested in any of the other free agent hitters, not for the money that their agents were trying to get.  I'm trying to get through one more year of Cabrera, I don't need to set out on another odyssey that ends the same way. 

[mtutiger]

47 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Sure, pay a guy tens of millions of dollars more than he is worth and you can get him to play for anybody. But if you’re a team like the Tigers and you’re the top bidder by only a few million, you’re probably not getting the guy, because he is going to want to go someplace where he can win. I know that idea gets pooh-poohed around here a lot, but it’s true.

By the way, how does it feel the root for a team that can’t get anybody decent come play for them unless they dramatically overpay them? Maybe for you … but I don’t like it.

 

Crazy how much we've been agreeing lately 🤣

[Toddwert]

11 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

I'm still waiting to hear an example of a "throw a bone" type vet free agent that would have made much of a difference during this series.

mitch Hangier , Justin Turner, wil Myers, Brandon Drury, Micheal Conforto..... those are just off the top of my head

[mtutiger]

17 minutes ago, Jim Cowan said:

Same here, there was some interest in Haniger among people here, but he's the only one I can think of.  I wasn't interested in any of the other free agent hitters, not for the money that their agents were trying to get.  I'm trying to get through one more year of Cabrera, I don't need to set out on another odyssey that ends the same way. 

I liked Hanger a lot, though he's going through an oblique issue at the moment and isn't playing. Which in and of itself shows how free agency is a crapshoot.

The discussion about strategy on free agents is a fair one to have, but in terms of assessing and reacting to what happened in St. Petersburg this weekend, its not particularly relevant given just how bad most of the team, basically everyone outside of Joey Wentz, Eduardo, and a couple others played. Nobody wants to hear it, but it's the reality.

Put another way, there's a baseline that the rest of the club would need to play at for free agents to factor into wins and losses, and they failed to even meet that at The Trop.

Edited April 3, 2023 by mtutiger

[mtutiger]

3 minutes ago, Toddwert said:

mitch Hangier , Justin Turner, wil Myers, Brandon Drury, Micheal Conforto..... those are just off the top of my head

None of these players would have affected a different outcome in a series where the rest of the team plays like that 

[Toddwert]

3 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

None of these players would have affected a different outcome in a series where the rest of the team plays like that 

and now you know why no one names free agents to you because you'll just pooh pooh them  so its pointless

[mtutiger]

12 minutes ago, Toddwert said:

and now you know why no one names free agents to you because you'll just pooh pooh them  so its pointless

I believe you missed the part where I said I liked Mitch Haniger. But even as much as I like him and actually wish they could have signed him, I don't think he would have affected a different outcome in this series.

Baseball is a team sport, there are 26 roster spots; you aren't going to win many games if only 5 of the 26 play well. Plugging and playing Mitch Hangier into one of those spots, assuming he's even healthy, doesn't really change that basic math problem.

Either way, as far as pooh poohing is concerned, aside from the fact that I'm pretty sure I'm the one with the minority view here, I just think that complaining about free agency activity is the easy way out here. It's harder, and scarier, to admit that this thing rises or falls on the talent that they still had in the org in 2022 and retain today. Said it in the offseason, will say it again now. It just is what it is.

Edited April 3, 2023 by mtutiger

[Motor City Sonics]

This weekend was pathetic.     The Rays were 86-76 last year,  not exactly the '27 Yankees or the Big Red Machine. 

How many Tiger starting players/position players would start on 90% of other teams.   5 ?    (Greene, Baez, Meadows, E-Rod and Manning).     We're going to keep paying for Al Avila's incompetence for a very long time.  Even if Harris does everything right, they aren't goin to be even decent until 2026.       This sucks.   

[Motor City Sonics]

Boyd, Turnbull & Wentz MIGHT be a 5th starter on an average or bad team.   

But we all knew this by 2019.  Too bad Chris doesn't watch games or pay attention.   

[Toddwert]

4 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

I believe you missed the part where I said I liked Mitch Haniger. But even as much as I like him and actually wish they could have signed him, I don't think he would have affected a different outcome in this series.

Baseball is a team sport, there are 26 roster spots; you aren't going to win many games if only 5 of the 26 play well. Plugging and playing Mitch Hangier into one of those spots, assuming he's even healthy, doesn't really change that basic math problem.

Either way, as far as pooh poohing is concerned, aside from the fact that I'm pretty sure I'm the one with the minority view here, I just think that complaining about free agency activity is the easy way out here. It's harder, and scarier, to admit that this thing rises or falls on the talent that they still had in the org in 2022 and retain today. Said it in the offseason, will say it again now. It just is what it is.

you can do both at the same time .... no one has ever said  do all free agents but to think you can come up with 26 players from your farm system  and be competive is crazy.... you guys act like your some how so virtuous because you dont want free agents

[mtutiger]

Just now, Toddwert said:

you can do both at the same time .... no one has ever said  do all free agents but to think you can come up with 26 players from your farm system  and be competive is crazy.... you guys act like your some how so virtuous because you dont want free agents

I just asked a simple question about which free agents would have affected a different outcome in the last series. With the overall point being that bringing up free agents is sort of a red herring given how terrible they were in this one particular series IMO.

I understand your argument in the bigger picture, I see the pros and cons to both ways of thinking. As this season wears on we will probably see the stats bear out that certain free agents could have theoretically helped them a game or two in W/L if they had the chance to sign them. Again, just stating that, given how they played this weekend, I just don't see how signing Wil Myers or Brandon Drury would have affected a different outcome in these three games.

[gehringer_2]

The other point is that just because a couple of better signings don't turn your team into a winner doesn't mean you don't start somewhere. Every team is built up through acquistions and development over time, you don't coast along and then bingo - in one year you suddenly have a filled out roster. It doesn't matter that had they signed or traded for a couple of better players they might still have been swept by TB if those moves were progress toward a better team down the road in the end than the last off-season's underwhelming haul is likely to be. They are a better team today and even potentially later when it matters with Austin Meadows and ERod than they would have been without them even if there is no brass ring this season or last. Unless your only strategy is to continue tanking for top picks - and even if it is - at some point you have to start building. If you're going to tell me that the guy we hope is one of the bright young minds in the game could do no better than waste his first off-season 'cause reasons, that's just a depressing take. Which is pretty much where I am.

Edited April 3, 2023 by gehringer_2

[Jim Cowan]

Besides Haniger, I just didn't like any of the free agents, not for the inflated prices and injury risk.  None of them made sense.  So I don't think that Harris wasted his offseason by not signing any of them.  

[Tenacious D]

The flawed approach that the team took 7 years ago just didn’t work.  If free agency is a crapshoot, the draft is even more so.  Tanking was stupid then and still is.

It’s going to be interesting to see how Harris digs out of this and how long it will take.  Let’s hope he is the right guy to get it done.

[mtutiger]

12 minutes ago, Jim Cowan said:

Besides Haniger, I just didn't like any of the free agents, not for the inflated prices and injury risk.  None of them made sense.  So I don't think that Harris wasted his offseason by not signing any of them.  

The other piece part of the inflated prices isn't $$$, it's length of contract. 

When Haniger, coming off of missing most of last year got 3 years, that's nuts. Hell, Tucker Barnhart, who everyone in this board wanted to fire into the sun last season, got 2 years.

My guess is that free agency being deprioritized in this first offseason has a lot to do with contract lengths as much as it did finances.

Edited April 3, 2023 by mtutiger

[mtutiger]

30 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

It doesn't matter that had they signed or traded for a couple of better players they might still have been swept by TB if those moves were progress toward a better team down the road in the end than the last off-season's underwhelming haul is likely to be. 

I hear you, but then again, we are working with a 3 game sample size so far this season... I need to see more of the finished product and what it produces before I'm convinced that Wil Myers would have changed their trajectory.

As an aside, outside of the offseason, this is the absolute worst time of the year as a baseball fan... this isn't really the sport to make broad sweeping pronouncements after three games, but every year, fans do it regardless. Sparky said 40, but I'd even take 20 at this point. 

[kdog]

I need more reasons to pay attention to this team if they are bad. Watching most of the same guys fail who were last year is part of the problem. At the very least, you can change the narrative that we aren't repeating 2022.

The entire premise for this season was "they can't be as bad offensively as last year." Every podcast and preview had that premise. The Tigers were looking for 2-3 WAR players, not 5 WAR guys. The expectations here are very low.

[kdog]

Just now, mtutiger said:

I hear you, but then again, we are working with a 3 game sample size so far this season... I need to see more of the finished product and what it produces before I'm convinced that Wil Myers would have changed their trajectory.

As an aside, outside of the offseason, this is the absolute worst time of the year as a baseball fan... this isn't really the sport to make broad sweeping pronouncements after three games, but every year, fans do it regardless. Sparky said 40, but I'd even take 20 at this point. 

They are going to be bad this season. There is an intangible value to giving your fans some faint hope even it's not going to impact your team significantly. 

But we didn't acquire many outside solutions. Harris can't just sit on bad performance like Avila did. Another few series of lifeless baseball and he has to churn the bottom of the roster.