04/02/2023 1:10pm EDT Detroit Tigers vs Tampa Bay Rays

[mtutiger]

1 minute ago, kdog said:

They are going to be bad this season. There is an intangible value to giving your fans some faint hope even it's not going to impact your team significantly. 

But we didn't acquire many outside solutions. Harris can't just sit on bad performance like Avila did. Another few series of lifeless baseball and he has to churn the bottom of the roster. 

Will Myers wouldn't have given me any more faint hope. And I doubt he would given the fan base anymore hope either.

Regarding your second point, we will see tons of churn this year regardless.

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, Jim Cowan said:

Besides Haniger, I just didn't like any of the free agents, not for the inflated prices and injury risk.  None of them made sense.  So I don't think that Harris wasted his offseason by not signing any of them.  

It's not only a matter of the marque free agents. It's generally the case of there not having been much of anything done large or small that made you think, "Hmmm, that was clever." You can't help but contrast the Tiger's off season to that of the Lions, where Brad Holmes has been impressing at each turn.  So we'll grant that baseball is a tougher environment, I still kept holding out hope right up until last Thursday he would make at least one move of some kind that gave me me one of those "Hmmm,.." moments on the Tiger's ledger - but none have come.

Edited April 3, 2023 by gehringer_2

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, mtutiger said:

I hear you, but then again, we are working with a 3 game sample size so far this season... I need to see more of the finished product and what it produces before I'm convinced that Wil Myers would have changed their trajectory.

As an aside, outside of the offseason, this is the absolute worst time of the year as a baseball fan... this isn't really the sport to make broad sweeping pronouncements after three games, but every year, fans do it regardless. Sparky said 40, but I'd even take 20 at this point. 

Sure, Maton and Vierling and Nevin and Ibenaz and McKinstry may turn into solid adds and in 6 weeks it will be clear that Harris is a bottom feeding talent procurement genius. I'm just waiting to feel the vibe.  🐻

[Jim Cowan]

49 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Will Myers wouldn't have given me any more faint hope. And I doubt he would given the fan base anymore hope either.

Regarding your second point, we will see tons of churn this year regardless.

Wil Myers is garbage, I would have been furious if Harris had signed him. 

He missed out on Haniger, the only worthwhile fit for this team, so OK presumably he made an effort there but was outbid.  As for the other FA's I wouldn't touch Correa with a 10 foot pole so please don't bore me by saying that he would not have signed here, nobody cares, and none of the other FA's made sense either.  So I think that we should stop fantasizing about these major league bats that could have been added - there weren't any.

Harris spent his time cleaning dead wood out of the bench and the bullpen, the scouting organization, and the training staff.  He did not trade for a major league bat because he has SFA to offer in exchange.  I think that his offseason was a B plus.

[mtutiger]

1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said:

Sure, Maton and Vierling and Nevin and Ibenaz and McKinstry may turn into solid adds and in 6 weeks it will be clear that Harris is a bottom feeding talent procurement genius. I'm just waiting to feel the vibe.  🐻

It isnt so much that those guys could turn into solid adds more than I dont understand how shopping at the 1 WAR bargain bin for the Wil Myers or Brandon Drury types is that much better. Other than it gives the fanbase someone new to complain about when they fail to live up to their contract (see Jonathan Schoop)

Edited April 3, 2023 by mtutiger

[HeyAbbott]

All of us knew this team was going to be bad. The only real question was when this season began was if they could win win 63 games. We all knew the first 40 games would be rough because the schedule was brutal.

Even knowing that, it is difficult to stomach this totally dead baseball we are seeing. I am going to opening day this week, and as of right now I am highly doubtful, that any of the first 15 games of the season will be remotely competitive.

[casimir]

11 hours ago, kdog said:

Probably not. But give me a few guys to watch while you continue to add talent organically through the minors.

Cabrera is the ticket draw from what I've been told by some.

[casimir]

9 hours ago, mtutiger said:

I believe you missed the part where I said I liked Mitch Haniger. But even as much as I like him and actually wish they could have signed him, I don't think he would have affected a different outcome in this series.

Baseball is a team sport, there are 26 roster spots; you aren't going to win many games if only 5 of the 26 play well. Plugging and playing Mitch Hangier into one of those spots, assuming he's even healthy, doesn't really change that basic math problem.

Either way, as far as pooh poohing is concerned, aside from the fact that I'm pretty sure I'm the one with the minority view here, I just think that complaining about free agency activity is the easy way out here. It's harder, and scarier, to admit that this thing rises or falls on the talent that they still had in the org in 2022 and retain today. Said it in the offseason, will say it again now. It just is what it is.

Yup.  So while we can point to a possible completely blank slate of mostly minimum salaries and a handful of arbitration level salaries going into 2024 if Baez & Rodriguez opt out, there needs to be some substance with that group of players in order to mesh with whatever free agents they can lure in to have a chance at being competitive.  Laying the foundation for the next competitive team is going to start from within the organization, not necessarily by shopping the free agent pool.

I liked the idea of going after Haniger.  He ended up signing a reasonable deal ($8M, $20M, and a player option for $15.5M).  Wil Myers made sense as a RHB that could handle corner OF and 1B if needed.  I don't think the Tigers were tied to either.

The acquisitions of Boyd and Lorenzen seem reasonable enough to me.  They should bridge this season if they can stay healthy.  But I'm hesitant to assume the pitching that was going to be core of the team going forward will be what we hoped it will be.  Their recovery would go a long way to being competitive in 2024.

[Toddwert]

you can pooh pooh the free agents all you want but it also sends a sign to the team and fans that your actually trying to win... you guys probably thought over paying for Pudge was a horrible idea in  2004 

[RandyMarsh]

I was just a dumb kid and teen in the 90s that didn't pay attention to things closely so morale was probably worse then but in atleast my adult lifetime this is lowest I felt in regards to team winning.

It feels like we are farther away from competing than any point since maybe 2003. I see no light at the end of the tunnel.

Only hope is maybe all the new staff can untap some potential from our minor leaguers and Harris can nail this upcoming draft. 

[casimir]

9 hours ago, Tenacious D said:

The flawed approach that the team took 7 years ago just didn’t work.  If free agency is a crapshoot, the draft is even more so.  Tanking was stupid then and still is.

It’s going to be interesting to see how Harris digs out of this and how long it will take.  Let’s hope he is the right guy to get it done.

Well, he has taken to dredging via waiver wire, traded away a couple of relievers, and signed a few one year deals in the short term.  Some coaching and other personnel changes have been made.  I think his first few years on the job need to be about progression of the organization rather than results in the standings.  It sucks for fans that have that 7 years in the rearview, but it is what it is at this point.

[casimir]

21 minutes ago, Toddwert said:

you can pooh pooh the free agents all you want but it also sends a sign to the team and fans that your actually trying to win... you guys probably thought over paying for Pudge was a horrible idea in  2004 

They still sucked in 2004.  And 2005.

[mtutiger]

25 minutes ago, casimir said:

I liked the idea of going after Haniger.  He ended up signing a reasonable deal ($8M, $20M, and a player option for $15.5M).  Wil Myers made sense as a RHB that could handle corner OF and 1B if needed.  I don't think the Tigers were tied to either.

I thought one of the beat writers suggested they did check in or try on Wil Myers, but I could be wrong. Jean Segura I know was one they were in on.

As far as signing any of these guys is concerned, I would have been fine with it. It's not that I am against signing free agents entirely, but if I am being honest with myself, I am not going to delude myself into thinking they have a better chance of being competitive shopping in the 1 WAR bargain bin. The significant advances toward improvement have always had to come from within.

Edited April 3, 2023 by mtutiger

[casimir]

Just now, mtutiger said:

I thought one of the beat writers suggested they did check in or try on Wil Myers, but I could be wrong. Jean Segura I know was one they were in on.

As far as signing any of these guys is concerned, I would have been fine with it. It's not that I am against them, but if I am being honest with myself, I am not going to delude myself into thinking they have a better chance of being competitive shopping in the 1 WAR bargain bin. The significant advances toward improvement have always had to come from within.

Yes, this is unlikely to change.  They're going to need the pitching, Greene, and Torkelson to be what we hope they will be in order to improve in the short term (ie, 2024/5).

[alex]

30 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

I thought one of the beat writers suggested they did check in or try on Wil Myers, but I could be wrong. Jean Segura I know was one they were in on.

As far as signing any of these guys is concerned, I would have been fine with it. It's not that I am against signing free agents entirely, but if I am being honest with myself, I am not going to delude myself into thinking they have a better chance of being competitive shopping in the 1 WAR bargain bin. The significant advances toward improvement have always had to come from within.

I posted this on another thread- any more thoughts (Thanks casimir):

Should the Tigers look at Estevan Florial, DFA, from the NYY?

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/f/flories01.shtml?utm_medium=linker&utm_source=www.mlbtraderumors.com&utm_campaign=2023-04-01_br

They just brought in LHB McKinstry, Paulson and Witherspoon. None have the pedigree of Florial. That is 'not' to say Florial is the better player or they 'should' do this - but he is young (same exact age as RKreidler), has athleticism and tools (speed, power and arm, decent glove as well) and has had success at AAA.

He is out of options, but is not Arb eligible until '26. Would this be a 'calculated risk' worth taking? or do we have simply better options. He does have some swing and miss tendency but does also have the ability to draw some walks.

The NYY are always in a 'Have to win now' mode and maybe initially brought up Florial too early, hence the scenario.

IMHO, this type of player could possibly do well in Comerica Park (reminds me of Granderson early on). I also think Vidal Brujan, back in the minors with Tampa, might be a good fit for the Tigers/park as well (we'll see on McKinstry though... ).

[mtutiger]

Those K rates are scary, but he can draw a walk and still has upside... Another LHH OF, which isn't ideal either.

Not sure who you DFA to get a rid of him... Would have to be an infielder like McKinstry or Short. But overall the kinda guy the Tigers should be looking at on the wire

Edited April 3, 2023 by mtutiger

[casimir]

5 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Those K rates are scary, but he can draw a walk and still has upside... Another LHH OF, which isn't ideal either.

Not sure who you DFA to get a rid of him... Would have to be an infielder like McKinstry or Short. But overall the kinda guy the Tigers should be looking at on the wire

Schoop?  He's not versatile.  It's questionable if he is tradeable.  Heck, maybe this is the trade?  DFA Schoop to claim Florial.  Or DFA a RP.

[chasfh]

13 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

More than Foley, I took from how you posted it that it doesn't really matter who Hinch plays when. If I got the feeling he was at that level of dismissal of game outcomes, I'd be checking out for of the rest of the season!

All I was saying is that this is the time for Hinch to move all his players in and out of roles to see who is capable of what under which circumstances. It’s about what I believe Hinch is trying to accomplish, not about what I personally want Hinch to do, or about whether I think any of this matters.

[chasfh]

13 hours ago, kdog said:

The downside of endless tanking with a clueless executive. Players and agents are smarter than we all think. And now that we are out of the Boras business, you aren't geting any favors from him.

Was it we who were getting favors from Boras? Or was it he who was getting favors from us? I think it was a symbiotic relationship, and clearly, it ended up hurting us in the end, while things are still going just peachy for Scott Boras

[kdog]

Pudge, Magglio, and Prince were all good deals. We suckered Texas into taking Prince and got Kinsler to lengthen our contending window. 

[buddha]

2 hours ago, casimir said:

Cabrera is the ticket draw from what I've been told by some.

youre gonna be bitching about this all season, arent you?

 

[chasfh]

13 hours ago, Toddwert said:

I dont have to like it  but its reality..... so if we dont sign any one then we develop players and unless im missing someone the great players in our system are on Tigers now. While probably decent players  neither one of them looks like a Julio Rodriguez or Bobby Witt Jr..  Im not saying building a team from free agents but you can add a player here and there to help. 

And the time will come for that, when good players see what is happening with the Tigers and decide yeah, I want to be part of that. I think we both know that’s not us now, and that it’s going to take some time—years, not months—to effect that change. In the meantime, the best we’ll be able to do is Robbie Grossman-level players—guys who don’t have much choice where to go.

Last offseason, it looked like we might be going places, so we were able to get Javier Baez and Eduardo Rodriguez and Andrew Chafin to come on board. They thought we were getting into a position to compete as early as 2022. Sure, we had to overpay them to get them on board, because we were still an unknown quantity, but they would never have signed on with us if they knew were were going to lose 90-plus games for a number of years to come. As it was, Chafin ended up leaving the Tigers because he could, and he signed on with the Diamondbacks for less. The Diamondbacks, FFS! For less!

This year, those guys we could sign were Matthew Boyd and Michael Lorenzen, guys literally no one else was going after, and had to overpay them to come here. So we did add a player here and there, where we could. And this is what we could get. Grid willing, it will be better next winter.

Edited April 3, 2023 by chasfh

[chasfh]

12 hours ago, mtutiger said:

Crazy how much we've been agreeing lately 🤣

Everything that goes around comes back around again, doesn’t it?

[Tiger337]

6 minutes ago, buddha said:

youre gonna be bitching about this all season, arent you?

 

yes, the 7-year farewell tour is coming to and end.   

[mtutiger]

12 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Last offseason, it looked like we might be going places, so we were able to get Javier Baez and Eduardo Rodriguez and Andrew Chafin to come on board. They thought we were getting into a position to compete as early as 2022. Sure, we had to overpay them to get them on board, because we were still an unknown quantity, but they would ever have signed on if they knew were were going to lose 90-plus games for a number of years more. Chafin ended up leaving the Tigers because he could, and signed on with the Diamondbacks for less. The Diamondbacks, FFS!

Incidentally, Chafin was also the only player they added last offseason that I didn't see our fanbase complain about not living up to their contract.

Which, again, demonstrates how much free agency isn't a sure thing and how it tends to be utilized more by teams trying to make up those last 5-10 games in the standings over teams on the bottom who don't have a good foundation to build on. 

Edited April 3, 2023 by mtutiger