Tiger337 Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 49 minutes ago, chasfh said: That might have been part of the calculation, although of bounceback season of this type, being a very good bet, should have been able to unlock some very good return in trade, the value of which could have far exceeded the extra couple Ms. I think the truth is probably closer to some combination of there being too much media pressure on Baby Doc was too great to dump Jeimer, and Jeimer himself not wanting to play here anymore under any circumstances. Is there any indication that Candelario didn't want to play in Detroit? I am not convinced that players hate playing in Detroit as much as you think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 3 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: and also maybe a little wet behind the ears hubris on Harris' part to the effect of "I can find a better 3B than Jeimer for less money." TBH that is exactly what I expected given the hype around Harris' hiring. Maybe that was part of it, too, who knows, although, who knows whether he is actually that hubristic. I'm a nobody, but even I could see there wasn't anyone on the market, or in the system, who projected to be as good as Jeimer was. My best guess is that Harris was led by outside circumstances to not sign Jeimer, either by the boss or by the talent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyMarsh Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 Didn't the Tigers control his rights anyway? I thought they chose not to tender him a contract which allowed him to become a FA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 1 minute ago, Tiger337 said: Is there any indication that Candelario didn't want to play in Detroit? I am not convinced that players hate playing in Detroit as much as you think. No, just a possibility I raised. Players are occasionally the agents of their own career direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theroundsquare Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 3 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said: Didn't the Tigers control his rights anyway? I thought they chose not to tender him a contract which allowed him to become a FA. this is correct Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KL2 Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 1 hour ago, chasfh said: Maybe that was part of it, too, who knows, although, who knows whether he is actually that hubristic. I'm a nobody, but even I could see there wasn't anyone on the market, or in the system, who projected to be as good as Jeimer was. My best guess is that Harris was led by outside circumstances to not sign Jeimer, either by the boss or by the talent. He wasn't even a 1 WAR player last year. I disagree there was nobody possibily out there either via free agency, trade or our sytem who could possibily put up a .5 WAR -- especially when you consider the cost. Even if you thought candy came back to a 1.5 player. Is 1.5 WAR at the cost worth it than less say not signing Lorezeno or not doing XYZ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cowan Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 16 minutes ago, KL2 said: He wasn't even a 1 WAR player last year. I disagree there was nobody possibily out there either via free agency, trade or our sytem who could possibily put up a .5 WAR -- especially when you consider the cost. Even if you thought candy came back to a 1.5 player. Is 1.5 WAR at the cost worth it than less say not signing Lorezeno or not doing XYZ. Yes. If you have 7 million in your budget and can give it to either Lorenzen or Candelario, do you give it to Candelario? I don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 15 hours ago, RatkoVarda said: This was my point in the offseason. He was the one guy who I felt would have a recovery season that would turn him into a potential trade deadline asset... Not Schoop. Not Baez. (Not counting Eduardo as we're speaking about position players here... Eduardo COULD fit into this category... if he can get back pitching, and healthy, in July...) Candy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 3 hours ago, chasfh said: This was basically the reason I thought he would be due for a bounceback. His mean was way higher than his performance last year, and I'm pretty sure nearly everyone, including Scott Harris and A.J. Hinch, saw that. Thank you. It ended up a money decision, and a roster changeover decision... Not a bounceback decision... IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 28 minutes ago, KL2 said: He wasn't even a 1 WAR player last year. I disagree there was nobody possibily out there either via free agency, trade or our sytem who could possibily put up a .5 WAR -- especially when you consider the cost. Even if you thought candy came back to a 1.5 player. Is 1.5 WAR at the cost worth it than less say not signing Lorezeno or not doing XYZ. I expected a 3-to-3.5-ish WAR season from him in 2023. Where's he at right now...? (don't be lazy, look it up 84...) Oh, 2.6. Exceeding expectations. So he's running at his 2021 level. Not to be unexpected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 30 minutes ago, KL2 said: He wasn't even a 1 WAR player last year. I disagree there was nobody possibily out there either via free agency, trade or our sytem who could possibily put up a .5 WAR -- especially when you consider the cost. Even if you thought candy came back to a 1.5 player. Is 1.5 WAR at the cost worth it than less say not signing Lorezeno or not doing XYZ. This was definitely not a case of Candelario projected to be just a half-win player in 2023. This whole sidebar was predicated on my assertion that he was going to be much more! Either way, a billionaire owner of a capital-appreciating major league baseball team could have found their way to signing both Lorenzen and Candelario—doing so would not have even moved them from 19th to 18th on the MLB payroll rankings. But, like a I say, I think there was more than just we need to pocket the seven Ms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 6 minutes ago, chasfh said: This was definitely not a case of Candelario projected to be just a half-win player in 2023. This whole sidebar was predicated on my assertion that he was going to be much more! Either way, a billionaire owner of a capital-appreciating major league baseball team could have found their way to signing both Lorenzen and Candelario—doing so would not have even moved them from 19th to 18th on the MLB payroll rankings. But, like a I say, I think there was more than just we need to pocket the seven Ms. I think the Candy decision boils down to, in its most simplest terms, as: "Let's just move on." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Jim Cowan said: Yes. If you have 7 million in your budget and can give it to either Lorenzen or Candelario, do you give it to Candelario? I don't. As a fan, I'd root for both. When your team increases the budget, that is generally a good thing. The only kind of contract I worry about is a long term contract where you will be stuck watching a player for too many decline years. As far as one or two year deals, the higher the budget the better. Edited June 30, 2023 by Tiger337 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinzaki Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 (edited) If the ifs and buts were candies and nuts...we'd all have a merry Christmas Edited June 30, 2023 by Shinzaki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 Yes, Candy and Lorenzo nuts. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports_Freak Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 2 hours ago, chasfh said: Maybe that was part of it, too, who knows, although, who knows whether he is actually that hubristic. I'm a nobody, but even I could see there wasn't anyone on the market, or in the system, who projected to be as good as Jeimer was. My best guess is that Harris was led by outside circumstances to not sign Jeimer, either by the boss or by the talent. My guess would be the boss being cheap...and stupid. The whole team didn't hit last season so Candelario took the blame for everyone. I complained about it during the off-season and early in the season until I was told to give it a rest. But I still think it was a horrible and stupid mistake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edman85 Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 Candelario is making about 2 million less than he would have with the Tigers through arbitration. Yeah, not our money, but it is worth noting that would have an effect on his trade value now vs. if he would have been tendered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 3 hours ago, gehringer_2 said: I guess what they also saw was: "if we're not going to be good, why spend $7M to be marginally less bad" In order to have kept Candelario, the Tigers would have had to offer a dollar amount that 29 other teams in baseball would not have offered on the open market. I dont think it hubris, they simply looked at his value, saw that the only way to guarantee to keep him was to overpay, and said that they would take their chances elsewhere. It was a fine decision at the time, I'm guessing one that most front offices in the sport would have made. Glad to see Candy is making a go of it as a Nat, but unlike Isaac Paredes, its not a franchise killer either Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports_Freak Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 2 minutes ago, mtutiger said: In order to have kept Candelario, the Tigers would have had to offer a dollar amount that 29 other teams in baseball would not have offered on the open market. I dont think it hubris, they simply looked at his value, saw that the only way to guarantee to keep him was to overpay, and said that they would take their chances elsewhere. It was a fine decision at the time, I'm guessing one that most front offices in the sport would have made. Glad to see Candy is making a go of it as a Nat, but unlike Isaac Paredes, its not a franchise killer either It could be a season killer though. We'll never know if the Tigers would win more games with him in the lineup. It goes further than stats, it has to do with the attitude and confidence of the rest of the team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports_Freak Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 9 minutes ago, Edman85 said: Candelario is making about 2 million less than he would have with the Tigers through arbitration. Yeah, not our money, but it is worth noting that would have an effect on his trade value now vs. if he would have been tendered. So the Tigers could have not offered him arbitration and then just signed him for less money? I thought once we declined, we weren't allowed to negotiate with him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports_Freak Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 1 hour ago, Tiger337 said: As a fan, I'd root for both. When your team increases the budget, that is generally a good thing. The only kind of contract I worry about is a long term contract where you will be stuck watching a player for too many decline years. As far as one or two year deals, the higher the budget the better. But to get top tier players, you need to offer multi-year deals. I'm not sure anyone likes it except the players...lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said: It could be a season killer though. We'll never know if the Tigers would win more games with him in the lineup. It goes further than stats, it has to do with the attitude and confidence of the rest of the team. I'll grant that he's maybe worth 1-2 wins.... but as far as the attitude and confidence of this team, I don't buy that at all. Candy wasn't the linchpin of this operation, and that was certainly evident during the 2022 season. Of which he played a significant part in their lackluster results. Edited June 30, 2023 by mtutiger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 3 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said: So the Tigers could have not offered him arbitration and then just signed him for less money? I thought once we declined, we weren't allowed to negotiate with him? Yes, they could have signed him after declining arbitration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 3 minutes ago, Edman85 said: Candelario is making about 2 million less than he would have with the Tigers through arbitration. Yeah, not our money, but it is worth noting that would have an effect on his trade value now vs. if he would have been tendered. The way Jeimer's contract is structured, there might end up being practically no difference. If Jeimer had been paid $7 million here and we traded him with two months left in the six-month season, the new team would be on the hook for a third of that, meaning $2.33MM. Jeimer is being paid $5 million base, so the hook for the team trading for him would be $1.67MM. However, there is a clause in his contract stipulating bonuses of $200K for five plate-appearance thresholds: 200, 300, 400, 500, and 600. He is at 325 PAs now, and he will be likely over 400 at trade time. When he hits 500 and 600, it will be the responsibility of the new team to pay that remaining $400K, which will bring the new team's total nut up to $2.07MM. The difference between $2.33MM and $2.07MM is basically a rounding error on a big league financial sheet, so I wouldn't think that the trade value of the lower number is more favorable as to affect what would come back in return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said: It could be a season killer though. We'll never know if the Tigers would win more games with him in the lineup. It goes further than stats, it has to do with the attitude and confidence of the rest of the team. well I know we have given up lead runs on balls bounced past Maton's right. Whether AJ would have had Candelario there had he been on the roster and whether he would have made the unmade plays we can only speculate. Edited June 30, 2023 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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