The Gaza War

[ben9753]

War sucks. Starting a war with against a stronger enemy and hiding behind civilians is not a cheat code. 

[MIguy]

On 11/17/2023 at 1:12 PM, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Hillary Clinton is absolutely a fraud and a phony, as is her husband Bill. I genuiely don't believe a lot of the politicians on the left are phony or fake though. I believe Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, AOC, Rashida, Cori Bush, Ayanna Pressley, are exactly who they are when the no one is around. I know for a fact Rashida is having met her dozens of times.

She's a radical leftist and a Hamas supporter, but hey, at least she's genuine! 

[Mr.TaterSalad]

2 hours ago, ben9753 said:

War sucks. Starting a war with against a stronger enemy and hiding behind civilians is not a cheat code. 

Neither is violating the 4th Geneva Conventions by shoving a gun in someone's face and telling them they have 72 hours to vacate their home that their family has lived in for generations so you can build a settlement.

Edited November 19, 2023 by Mr.TaterSalad

[MIguy]

6 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Neither is violating the 4th Geneva Conventions by shoving a gun in someone's face and telling them they have 72 hours to vacate their home that their family has lived in for generations so you can build a settlement.

Israel is absolutely wrong for doing stuff like that.  It's one thing to claim that you need to occupy certain areas for the security of your own lands, but when you start evicting residents and moving your own people in, it becomes obvious what your true intent is.  The USA and other countries need to do better in calling it out.

That said, lets not use that in a way that it tries to excuse the actions of Hamas.  Hamas doesn't give a damn about the Palestine people and is not fighting Israel in the name of people who have been unjustly evicted from their homes.  It wouldn't matter if there were a "two state solution" with both sides living in peace, there would still be groups like Hamas trying to wipe out Israel.   

[ewsieg]

22 hours ago, MIguy said:

She's a radical leftist and a Hamas supporter, but hey, at least she's genuine! 

you forgot tax evader.

[MIguy]

3 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

you forgot tax evader.

I've not heard of her having tax issues and a google search shows nothing.  What are you referring to? 

[ewsieg]

2 hours ago, MIguy said:

I've not heard of her having tax issues and a google search shows nothing.  What are you referring to? 

battlecreekenquirer.com/story/news/2014/04/18/michigan-rep-rashida-tlaib-pays-back-property-taxes-makes-donations-to-charity/7893289/

She claimed it was a mistake that she made for 5 years in a row.  She only legally had to pay back 3 years, which she did.  

Outside of this, her own father claimed she didn't live in the house she claimed she lived in so she could be eligible to run for a district as a state rep.  That would have tax implications as well.

[MIguy]

7 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

battlecreekenquirer.com/story/news/2014/04/18/michigan-rep-rashida-tlaib-pays-back-property-taxes-makes-donations-to-charity/7893289/

She claimed it was a mistake that she made for 5 years in a row.  She only legally had to pay back 3 years, which she did.  

Outside of this, her own father claimed she didn't live in the house she claimed she lived in so she could be eligible to run for a district as a state rep.  That would have tax implications as well.

That seems really minor and has been taken care of.  I'll stick to not liking her for being an unhinged supporter of terrorists.   

[ewsieg]

4 minutes ago, MIguy said:

That seems really minor and has been taken care of.  I'll stick to not liking her for being an unhinged supporter of terrorists.   

Agreed and i've been up front about this before, cheating on taxes and lying about where they live for political gain is where I hope we can go back to with our political candidates.   You know, the good 'ole days.

[Tigerbomb13]

On 11/19/2023 at 12:40 PM, MIguy said:

She's a radical leftist and a Hamas supporter, but hey, at least she's genuine! 

Do you have examples on how she’s a Hamas supporter? 

[MIguy]

48 minutes ago, Tigerbomb13 said:

Do you have examples on how she’s a Hamas supporter? 

You mean other than being a member of a private Facebook group that praises Hamas?  There's also the fact that whenever she speaks on the issue, she goes after Israel rather than Hamas.  Then finally, there's her use of the trope "from the river to the sea" a slogan adopted by Hamas.   

[RatkoVarda]

1 hour ago, Tigerbomb13 said:

Do you have examples on how she’s a Hamas supporter? 

if I know a guy, let's call him Rasheed, and he wears a NYY hat, gets very excited when the NYY slaughter another team, cries when the NYY lose, despises the Red Sox, and agrees with every decision the NYY make, no matter how barbaric, can't I just assume he is a NYY fan, even if he never has the guts to publicly admit it?

[Tiger337]

And being a Yankees fan is almost as bad as being a Hamas supporter.  Pretty close.  😀

[MIguy]

Someone F'ed around and found out.  

[smr-nj]

3 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

And being a Yankees fan is almost as bad as being a Hamas supporter.  Pretty close.  😀

{ insert Bronx cheer here }

[1776]

8 hours ago, Tigerbomb13 said:

Do you have examples on how she’s a Hamas supporter? 

Rashida Tlaib Promoted a Fundraiser for Group Tied to Hamas, Taliban

Baitulmaal gives financial support to families of Palestinian terrorists

Matthew Foldi writing for FreeBeacon

August 27, 2021

Rep. Rashida Tlaib (D., Mich.) on Wednesday shared a tweet that advertised a fundraiser for an organization with ties to Hamas and the Taliban.

Tlaib, who has a long history of anti-Semitic rhetoric, retweeted a post from critical race theorist Khaled Beydoun that urged donations to Baitulmaal, a Texas-based nonprofit. Experts say Baitulmaal helps fundraise for Hamas and distributes aid to the "families of martyrs of the Palestinian people." And the group's leader, Mazen Mokhtar, has been accused of working with the Taliban and other terrorist groups.

The retweet isn't the first time Tlaib expressed support for terrorists. Days after she became a congresswoman, the controversial Democrat hosted Abbas Hamideh, a pro-Hezbollah activist who has repeatedly compared Israelis to Nazis. She shared a post last year that included an anti-Semitic phrase frequently used by Palestinian terrorist groups that seek to destroy Israel. She subsequently unshared the post.

Baitulmaal works closely with Hamas terrorists in the Gaza Strip, according to a 2020 analysis by the Middle East Forum. The group, which received $10,000 in emergency coronavirus funding last year, frequently partners with Unlimited Friends Association for Social Development, a Palestinian group that describes itself as a "a social, developmental, educational NGO."

The Unlimited Friends Association works with Baitulmaal to hand out cash to the families of Palestinian terrorists, according to the Middle East Forum. These donations complement the Palestinian Authority's formal "Pay to Slay" program, which has funneled hundreds of millions of dollars to Palestinian terrorists. The Palestinian government this year paid $42,000 to the family of a Palestinian terrorist who stabbed two Israelis to death and wounded two more, including a two-year-old child.

The association, which lists Baitulmaal on its website'spartners and donors page, is openly hostile towards Israel. The group's Facebook page contains references to "the filth of the most dirty Jews" and "Nazi Zionist jails." The association also partners with Islamic Relief, a group with which the State Department cut ties this year because of "anti-Semitism exhibited repeatedly" by its leaders.

In 2004, federal agents in Connecticut investigatedMokhtar for running a website that "solicited funds for the Taliban and Chechen mujahideen." Mokhtar was not convicted. Three years later, he was arrested on a multi-count indictment for filing false tax returns. The lead prosecutor was former New Jersey governor Chris Christie (R.).

Baitulmaal also partners with West Bank-based Hamas organizations. The organization hosted a 2008 fundraiser for the Yazour Medical Clinic in Nablus, an offshoot of Hamas. One Palestinian newspaper reports that Baitulmaal and the Hamas offshoot have been working together "for years."

Anti-Semitic activist Linda Sarsour last year hosted a fundraiser for Baitulmaal that raised tens of thousands of dollars.

Tlaib and Baitulmaal did not respond to requests for comment.

Edited November 22, 2023 by 1776

[Biff Mayhem]

13 hours ago, 1776 said:

Rashida Tlaib Promoted a Fundraiser for Group Tied to Hamas, Taliban

Go Yankees!

[chasfh]

On 11/19/2023 at 12:03 PM, MIguy said:

Israel is absolutely wrong for doing stuff like that.  It's one thing to claim that you need to occupy certain areas for the security of your own lands, but when you start evicting residents and moving your own people in, it becomes obvious what your true intent is.  The USA and other countries need to do better in calling it out. 

It's hard for the US to be anything other than "Israel right or wrong", since the Jewish people as both individuals and as a political identity still occupy that moral high ground from ~75 years ago. That said, I've been gobsmacked how many (I had thought) reasonable people of the Hebraic persuasion think nothing of the idea of killing hundreds of thousands of Gaza civilians because, hey, they voted Hamas in back in 2004 or whatever it was, so it's their own damn fault what's happening to them. Of course, never mind that Hamas has blocked elections ever since then, and that half the people in Palestine are children and weren't even alive or old enough back then to vote. Justice is the demand, just like it was post 9/11. Exact same idea, it looks to me.

[oblong]

Here’s two scenarios to consider and how do you think they would play out:

An IDF soldier is confronting a Hamas soldier one on one in warfare and suddenly the Hamas soldier pulls out a Palestinian child in front of him basically daring the IDF soldier to continue on shooting at him.  What do you think the IDF soldier would do?

Change that around now to an IDF soldier pulling out a Jewish child in front of him daring the Hamas fighter?  What would the Hamas fighter do?

It’s my strong belief the IDF soldier lets him go. The Hamas fighter would just blast away without giving it a nanosecond of a thought.  He wouldn’t think it a tragedy or feel the slightest guilt.

 

[gehringer_2]

17 minutes ago, oblong said:

Here’s two scenarios to consider and how do you think they would play out:

An IDF soldier is confronting a Hamas soldier one on one in warfare and suddenly the Hamas soldier pulls out a Palestinian child in front of him basically daring the IDF soldier to continue on shooting at him.  What do you think the IDF soldier would do?

Change that around now to an IDF soldier pulling out a Jewish child in front of him daring the Hamas fighter?  What would the Hamas fighter do?

It’s my strong belief the IDF soldier lets him go. The Hamas fighter would just blast away without giving it a nanosecond of a thought.  He wouldn’t think it a tragedy or feel the slightest guilt.

 

It's always a dilemma when evil people must be removed from power. It's immoral to leave them in control of other people's lives, it's equally true that they will never be dislodged by conventionally 'moral' means. And often their replacements will only nominally less evil. 

And what's worse is that in the middle of a situation it's very hard to tell how it will come out and whether you are going to end up doing more good or harm. You may not not know for 20-30 years. For me, I think Vietnam vs Iraq are the historical counterpoints. We thought we knew what 'had to be done' to protect the western world in Vietnam but we were absolutely wrong and if we had never sent a single boot I would challenge anyone to provide a believable story of why the world would be a worse place. OTOH, the near term verdict on Iraq was that it was a unmitigated disaster, but guess what - with time in distance it's beginning to emerge that things are beginning to hold together bit by bit in Iraq maybe the door was opened for a better future there even as badly as the neo-cons bungled the management of it.

[Jim Cowan]

I believe that the IDF soldier keeps shooting and confidently says "if there was a war crime committed, it was committed by Hamas for using a human shield", like they say every day in real life.  Netanyahu would drop an atomic bomb on them and consider the dead Palestinian child to be a bonus.

[ben9753]

6 hours ago, Jim Cowan said:

I believe that the IDF soldier keeps shooting and confidently says "if there was a war crime committed, it was committed by Hamas for using a human shield", like they say every day in real life.

Would they be wrong? The difference in the scenarios laid out is that the Israeli soldier using a child as a shield is a theoretical. Hamas using a child as a shield is not. 

[Jim Cowan]

1 hour ago, ben9753 said:

Would they be wrong? The difference in the scenarios laid out is that the Israeli soldier using a child as a shield is a theoretical. Hamas using a child as a shield is not. 

The suggestion was made that the IDF soldier would not shoot.  My suggestion is that he would.

[Biff Mayhem]

11 hours ago, Jim Cowan said:

The suggestion was made that the IDF soldier would not shoot.  My suggestion is that he would.

But then you added the nuclear bomb and the PM being happy about a child dying. Perhaps you were being sarcastic and it flew over my head or maybe, just maybe, you are out of your mind.

[pfife]

Reality:   IDF has killed thousands of people the IDF, as well as many posters here, say are human shields.

MotownForums:   Let's come up with a hypothetical scenario where IDF isn't doing what IDF is doing and belabor it.

LOL