Al Avila: “You’ve got to go full bore from Day 1"

[RandyMarsh]

I know a couple of the guys I'm going to list left via FA and I know a couple more were rentals which hurt their value but still it just baffles me that in a 4-5 year stretch we lost a prime Max Scherzer, David Price, Yoennis Cespedes, JD Martinez, Justin Verlander, Nick Castellanos among some others and got absolutely nothing in return to show for it. And yes I know this has been beaten to death but it's something that is just mind boggling to think about. 

[1776]

19 minutes ago, Useful Idiot said:

Isn't it fundamental to the concept of creating wealth, to effect "improvements"?  I think its part of the game....make changes that prior ownership was too ignorant to implement...I think some call it "vision".

Detroit has a relatively new park. That was a huge move ownership has made in recent history. So an old and outdated park isn’t in the conversation. So, beyond that, what would benefit a buyer by relocating the team that can’t be accomplished here in Detroit. A new ownership can improve the team and system here without moving. There is a fan base in Detroit starving for competent leadership and investment. This doesn’t require moving the team at all. 
I’m not understanding how an owner can improve his wealth, per se, by relocating the franchise. Besides, I’m pretty sure MLB would not allow a new owner to relocate this franchise, period. 
Am I missing something here?

[Useful Idiot]

3 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

I know a couple of the guys I'm going to list left via FA and I know a couple more were rentals which hurt their value but still it just baffles me that in a 4-5 year stretch we lost a prime Max Scherzer, David Price, Yoennis Cespedes, JD Martinez, Justin Verlander, Nick Castellanos among some others and got absolutely nothing in return to show for it. And yes I know this has been beaten to death but it's something that is just mind boggling to think about. 

Payroll relief

[Useful Idiot]

14 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

San Antonio beckons.

 

i'm not even willing to get into that debate, as to what alternate locations might work.  No productive end to that line of thinking. But I do think it would be foolish to assume there are none.

I lived in the Oakland market when  the Raiders left, and I lived in LA when they left again...So the one thing I am sure of is that fan sentiment means zilch

[mtutiger]

15 minutes ago, 1776 said:

Detroit has a relatively new park. That was a huge move ownership has made in recent history. So an old and outdated park isn’t in the conversation. So, beyond that, what would benefit a buyer by relocating the team that can’t be accomplished here in Detroit. A new ownership can improve the team and system here without moving. There is a fan base in Detroit starving for competent leadership and investment. This doesn’t require moving the team at all. 
I’m not understanding how an owner can improve his wealth, per se, by relocating the franchise. Besides, I’m pretty sure MLB would not allow a new owner to relocate this franchise, period. 
Am I missing something here?

You aren't missing anything. Detroit is an original 1901 AL franchise with an established brand that, while not as iconic as the Yanks or Sox or Dodgers, isn't far behind. It has a passionate, well-establisbed and loyal fanbase that has proven it will spend money on the team and it is located in a mid to upper mid range metro area population wise, and one with some wealth as well.

If Pizza Jr coughed this franchise up, somebody else with a vision could make way more money with the franchise parked right where it is at 2100 Woodward. Moreso than they would make relocating it to Nashville or Charlotte or San Antonio

Edited May 13, 2022 by mtutiger

[Tiger337]

20 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

I know a couple of the guys I'm going to list left via FA and I know a couple more were rentals which hurt their value but still it just baffles me that in a 4-5 year stretch we lost a prime Max Scherzer, David Price, Yoennis Cespedes, JD Martinez, Justin Verlander, Nick Castellanos among some others and got absolutely nothing in return to show for it. And yes I know this has been beaten to death but it's something that is just mind boggling to think about. 

I think teams that are forced to trade good players for prospects lose the trade more often than not, but I believe that the Tigers have failed in that area worse than most.  It really is amazing how much talent they've lost with virtually no return.  You can take all those players individually and rationalize why they couldn't have done better.  Ownership hasn't helped for instance.  However, when you miss so many times, something is wrong.  

[Useful Idiot]

22 minutes ago, 1776 said:

I’m not understanding how an owner can improve his wealth, per se, by relocating the franchise. Besides, I’m pretty sure MLB would not allow a new owner to relocate this franchise, period. 
Am I missing something here?

Leverage.  The lotus song of 21st century capitalism: the "Public/Private partnership.   

Never underestimate the ability of talented scoundrels to motivate the masses by just investing a few tens of thousands of dollars in snazzy architectural drawings....and before you know it the local taxpayer base is doing all the heavy lifting for you.  AGAIN, don't think that is what I am advocating. I'm just filling in the blanks for what you claim to be unable to see.

Edited May 13, 2022 by Useful Idiot

[Useful Idiot]

Don't forget, the commissioner works for the league. The owners are the league. If a move promised increased revenues, without seriously impinging upon an existing franchise,  league approval would be a slam dunk.

[Useful Idiot]

I don't  think that little itch really has his heart in owning the Tigers. I suspect that he feels more saddled by the ownership (due to the magnitude of dollars involved...not wanting to take a bath in exiting).....but I suspect he could be motivated, if the offer didn't make him feel like he was giving away the family farm. JMHO

[1776]

1 hour ago, Useful Idiot said:

AGAIN, don't think that is what I am advocating. I'm just filling in the blanks for what you claim to be unable to see.

There is nothing to see. The Tigers aren’t going anywhere, new ownership or not. 

[Useful Idiot]

Just now, 1776 said:

There is nothing to see. The Tigers aren’t going anywhere, new ownership or not. 

Well, I hope you are right. But then I had hoped the hype being fed to us  about a team playing meaningful games had substance, ...as well.

[gehringer_2]

51 minutes ago, Useful Idiot said:

I don't  think that little itch really has his heart in owning the Tigers. I suspect that he feels more saddled by the ownership (due to the magnitude of dollars involved...not wanting to take a bath in exiting).....but I suspect he could be motivated, if the offer didn't make him feel like he was giving away the family farm. JMHO

He talks like he does, but then again Mike I put the Tigers into a trust before he died and I've seen speculation that when Marion passes the siblings may demand Chris cash out. Without knowing the details of the Tiger Trust who knows how much power Chris has as Trustee to tell his sibs to take a hike (assuming that would be his preference) or if Mike even left the sibs as beneficiaries of it.

Edited May 13, 2022 by gehringer_2

[Useful Idiot]

And, this is from the heart, okay? I'm not trying to rain on anybody's parade but my own.

The way this team is performing, it will be especially interesting to see what happens to attendance now that Miggy's landmark milestones are behind him. Actual butts in seats, not just "paid attendance".  My expectation is that it will flatline.

 

And, I believe the criteria that any new potential owner is going to pay attention to, is what will it take to fill up the stadium?  I think eventually the owners (entire league) are going to have to acknowledge that the 2014/2015 Royals were an aberration  and not the Excalibur they'd hoped it was.....and that spending money is the proven path to dominance.

New owners will look at what it took to fill up Comerica park, and  be stunned to see that the 2012 level salaries that were required, yielded a net operating loss.    I think that will weigh more heavily in their ultimate decisions than tradition, fan sentiment, or legacy.   Just my cynic 2 cents

[buddha]

the idea of the tigers moving is ridiculous.  i'm as cynical as anyone and it makes no sense to move them.

for fucks sake the PIRATES havent moved why would detroit?  a town that is much bigger and actually supports its team?

besides, as has been talked to death here, there arent too many markets left that could support a baseball team.  charlotte?  nashville?  austin/san antonio?  vegas?  all smaller than the detroit metro area and all without baseball stadiums.  

i have 99 problems with the tigers but a move aint one.

[Scottwood]

Detroit punches above its weight as a sports town. Very loyal fanbases and they always get good TV ratings relative to market size. The Tigers or any other major Detroit sports franchise isn't going to leave.

[mtutiger]

7 hours ago, buddha said:

the idea of the tigers moving is ridiculous.  i'm as cynical as anyone and it makes no sense to move them.

for fucks sake the PIRATES havent moved why would detroit?  a town that is much bigger and actually supports its team?

besides, as has been talked to death here, there arent too many markets left that could support a baseball team.  charlotte?  nashville?  austin/san antonio?  vegas?  all smaller than the detroit metro area and all without baseball stadiums.  

i have 99 problems with the tigers but a move aint one.

Look at what Mark Attanasio's ownership has done for the Brewers... that's an org in a small market that had perennial attendance problems, and now it makes money hand over first.

Get the right owner in place with a good management team in Detroit, with the already existing infrastructure and iconic branding that the team has and the loyalty of Michigan sports fans, and there's no doubt they'd make way more money than trying to compete for the attention of the techbros of Austin (most of whom are either Astros fans or Californians who are fans of the Dodgers/Giants)

[chasfh]

10 hours ago, RandyMarsh said:

I know a couple of the guys I'm going to list left via FA and I know a couple more were rentals which hurt their value but still it just baffles me that in a 4-5 year stretch we lost a prime Max Scherzer, David Price, Yoennis Cespedes, JD Martinez, Justin Verlander, Nick Castellanos among some others and got absolutely nothing in return to show for it. And yes I know this has been beaten to death but it's something that is just mind boggling to think about. 

Also, don't forget Willy Adames, Eugenio Suarez, Robbie Ray, Corey Knebel, Jose Alvarez, Chad Green, and Luis Cessa.

Well, we didn't get exactly nothing for Green and Cessa. We did get Justin Wilson in return, who unlocked Jeimer Candelario and Isaac Paredes, the latter of which also unlocked Austin Meadows. But it sure did take a long while to finally get a positive return for them.

[KL2]

Fire him

[Dtrain72]

16 minutes ago, KL2 said:

Fire him

 

 

Edited August 2, 2022 by Dtrain72

[gkelly]

On 5/12/2022 at 11:39 PM, buddha said:

charlotte?  nashville?  austin/san antonio?  vegas?

I am really surprised N. Carolina doesn't have a franchise.  The Raleigh area has over 2 million people and Charlotte has around 2.5 million.  Both are really beautiful areas and growing quickly.  It's at least a 4 hour drive from Charlotte to Atlanta or Raleigh to DC.  I can't see the Tigers moving out of Detroit, and I think Oakland, Pittsburgh, Kansas City, and Tampa Bay are much better candidates to move.  Oakland isn't even going to get to 700k attendance this season.  Detroit is 21st out of 30 in attendance.  In 2016, the last time they fielded a decent team, they were 13 and in 2014, they were 7th overall in attendance.  They reached 3 million in 2013.  The fans go to the game as long as there is a decent product on the field.  You put a garbage team out there, and regardless of the location, people aren't going to attend the games.  

[casimir]

5 hours ago, gkelly said:

I am really surprised N. Carolina doesn't have a franchise.  The Raleigh area has over 2 million people and Charlotte has around 2.5 million.  Both are really beautiful areas and growing quickly.  It's at least a 4 hour drive from Charlotte to Atlanta or Raleigh to DC.  I can't see the Tigers moving out of Detroit, and I think Oakland, Pittsburgh, Kansas City, and Tampa Bay are much better candidates to move.  Oakland isn't even going to get to 700k attendance this season.  Detroit is 21st out of 30 in attendance.  In 2016, the last time they fielded a decent team, they were 13 and in 2014, they were 7th overall in attendance.  They reached 3 million in 2013.  The fans go to the game as long as there is a decent product on the field.  You put a garbage team out there, and regardless of the location, people aren't going to attend the games.  

The Oakland and Tampa situations need to be resolved.  But we hear this every year, so what's a little more time?

I'm not sure I see Kansas City and Pittsburgh as relocation candidates.  Both are entrenched in their communities and have good stadium situations.  I guess in pro sports you never say never about moving a team, but I just don't think either of those two are franchises looking for another town right now.

Edited August 4, 2022 by casimir

[chasfh]

6 hours ago, gkelly said:

I am really surprised N. Carolina doesn't have a franchise.  The Raleigh area has over 2 million people and Charlotte has around 2.5 million.  Both are really beautiful areas and growing quickly.  It's at least a 4 hour drive from Charlotte to Atlanta or Raleigh to DC.  I can't see the Tigers moving out of Detroit, and I think Oakland, Pittsburgh, Kansas City, and Tampa Bay are much better candidates to move.  Oakland isn't even going to get to 700k attendance this season.  Detroit is 21st out of 30 in attendance.  In 2016, the last time they fielded a decent team, they were 13 and in 2014, they were 7th overall in attendance.  They reached 3 million in 2013.  The fans go to the game as long as there is a decent product on the field.  You put a garbage team out there, and regardless of the location, people aren't going to attend the games.  

I had long thought North Carolina could not support a team because the population is so scattered and it would be more difficult to fill 40,000 seats every night, but as times goes by, I think that’s less important than it was maybe even ten years ago. Nowadays they don’t depend so much on high game day attendance to ensure fiancical success, so they could build a stadium in the low 30s, even high 20s, that could look fuller for the optics. But a new franchise would probably be a financial boon for everyone involved almost regardless of where they put it or how many show up for games.

[Motor City Sonics]

3 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I had long thought North Carolina could not support a team because the population is so scattered and it would be more difficult to fill 40,000 seats every night, but as times goes by, I think that’s less important than it was maybe even ten years ago. Nowadays they don’t depend so much on high game day attendance to ensure fiancical success, so they could build a stadium in the low 30s, even high 20s, that could look fuller for the optics. But a new franchise would probably be a financial boon for everyone involved almost regardless of where they put it or how many show up for games.

If baseball wants to stabilize they need a salary cap and a salary floor and that is never ever ever going to happen.   It's getting like the NBA, where you have glamour teams and feeder teams and the Tigers are a feeder team.  Soon as our guys get good, we'll trade them or they'll bolt in free agency.  At least with Chris Illitch at the helm.   This is why Milwaukee made the bold move of trading Josh Hader.   They know they can't pay him after next year and they also know that he'd never have more value than right now, so they had to trade him and as much as it hurts the fans in Milwaukee, they played it the Tampa Bay Way.   

I don't know, I don't think baseball is headed in the right direction for expansion.   I think they are closer to retraction with the woeful situations in Oakland, Tampa and Miami.    KC, Cleveland and Pittsburgh aren't much better.    If Oakland, Tampa and Miami end up moving to say - Las Vegas, Nashville and Montreal,  where would expansion work?    I don't think it would work in North Carolina.  To me that would feel like another Tampa/Miami situation.  They've never been into baseball there.      Indianapolis -  I think it would be a great market for baseball, but would never get the okay because the Reds, Cardinals, White Sox and Cubs would block it.     The best place for an expansion team is Northern New Jersey but the Yankees, Mets and Phillies would never allow it.   

 And Portland?   Portland is a political nightmare.   My sister, who is as liberal as me, couldn't take it anymore and moved back here.  It's liberal to it's stupidest extreme.   Anyone here from Portland?  You know.    Plus they never really supported minor league baseball either.  People actually move to Portland to live the homeless lifestyle.  Yes, that's a thing and they pick Portland because the city lets them go wherever they want pretty much.  How would you like to wake up and see people camped on your easement?   Hint: that ain't dog doo doo on the grass.  

As far as the Tigers.  After all these years of rebuilding we don't have enough prospects to even pretend to matter on a trade deadline day.   Our best hitters, and I think I'm legit in saying this are a 39 year old has-been who is 30% of your total payroll and hits only singles now,  and Victor Reyes and Harold Castro.   Can't draft.  Can't develop. Can't trade.  No indication that anything will change because the family apparently still makes money off of it.   As long as they can profit, why would they change anything?   Hope they have a full house Saturday for Lou.  He deserves it.  He absolutely should be in the Hall of Fame and the fact that he was aloof shouldn't keep him out, but other than that and Opening Day, when will you ever see a full house at Comerica?   I'm not even sure 2023 Opening Day will sell out.   Especially if Al is still the GM.  Fans are rightly pissed.   Another year of 4 pro teams with no playoffs for Suck City.   

[Motor City Sonics]

Funny...........when Detroit was still a shithole we had at least 2 good pro teams at all times, sometimes 3.    But since *The Comeback all of our teams have sucked

Would you rather have Shit City with good sports

Or *Gleaming New City with horrible teams

 

* - except for the neighborhoods

[oblong]

Happy 7 year anniversary