07/24/2022 1:40 EDT Minnesota Twins at Detroit Tigers

[KL2]

2 hours ago, Tigermojo said:

Hinch's handling of Baddoo has been awful. Yes he's struggling but Grossman and Castro are most definitely not the answer. Baddoo could be the answer, so you give him all the playing time. They gave Torkelson all the playing time, why not Baddoo?

Cause most Rule 5 players are nothing. Maybe Badoo was just a flash in a pan on a blah team and now he's reventing back. They can play him, but i don't think not playing him is killing us. 

Did we once say the same thing about Reyes? 

[casimir]

6 hours ago, chasfh said:

OK, at what point do we start assigning any responsibility at all for the injuries to the training staff, versus 100% to simple dumb luck? I mean, this is really persistent.

I’ve been wondering about that, and also (and this will draw some ire) if the pitching coaching might have a sliver of responsibility as well.

[Motor City Sonics]

19 minutes ago, KL2 said:

I'll preface this by saying I don't care if Al stays or goes. His trades have netted zero and the FAs all turned to pumpkins this year. Though nobody was complaining at the time 

But some in here is just unfair. Yes hes been here for seven years. But, for the first couple they were trying to win with the old group then he tore it down. It wasn't a tear down from day 1. So being like you said seven years to build is a bit unfair cause it wasn't like he started from day one.

Then you talk about drafting and developing. if you say he has had seven years, he's really had six years of developing and drafting. Few players are phenominal in their first year. Al in theory has his first group hitting FA (six years in the big and that's only one year in the minors). Do you know a bunch of teams with 27 year old all stars all over the field who were developed at home? Then don't forget they lost a year to COVID, a very important year that set everything back. 

Again you can take or leave Al for all I care, but the ole Valentini he's had seven year argument doesn't take a full picture into consideration. 

Al has been here for 20 years.   He was the guy organizing the scouting and development for Dave Dombrowski.   He's had more than 7 years.  He's a disaster. 

The starting lineup since Al's been with the Tigers.   This is the lineup of the best players at each position since Al has been with the Tigers.   

1B - Jeff Larish (actually better than Tork has been so far)
2B - Devon Travis.  But we traded him for Anthony Gose as in Anthony Gose back to the dugout after striking out
SS - Danny Worth.   More interesting as a pitcher
3B - Scott Sizemore.    Yep, the guy we jettisoned Polanco for. 
RF - Nick Castellanos.   Couldn't catch a cold
CF - Cameron Maybin.  Journeyman player (Greene hasn't had enough time to evaluate yet)
LF - Matt Joyce.  A platoon player at best
DH - James McCann.  Because I couldn't find anyone else
C - Alex Avila.  Very good player.  His own son.  Not a difficult find.  

We've had few international players we signed but many of them busts or traded away

That's not an All-Star lineup there. 

Yes they've been decent on pitching, but hitting is part of the game too.   So is catching the ball.  Something Castellanos, Sizemore and Joyce weren't very good at. 

That's all he has.   That's it.  

Horrible trades.    Bad FA signings.  

It's awful   And it's on him.  
 

[buddha]

akil baddoo has an ops+ of 6.  as a corner outfielder.

yeah, aj hinch is an idiot for not playing that guy.  lol.

[SoCalTiger]

49 minutes ago, KL2 said:

That's just silly. 

That does nothing to help us and just causes problems. It's jsut reacting out of emotions. 

Yes it’s emotion but don’t you think it’s a bit silly to think we can trade him for anything of value ?

[1984Echoes]

1 hour ago, KL2 said:

That's just silly. 

That does nothing to help us and just causes problems. It's jsut reacting out of emotions. 

How is dumping Grossman and his .592 OPS silly?

I'd drop him right this very F'ing second if I was GM.

But you think dumping a .592 OPS is silly...?

[Tiger337]

59 minutes ago, KL2 said:

Cause most Rule 5 players are nothing. Maybe Badoo was just a flash in a pan on a blah team and now he's reventing back. They can play him, but i don't think not playing him is killing us. 

Did we once say the same thing about Reyes? 

I think Baddoo should have stayed in AAA longer and probably would have if it weren't for Meadows health problems.  

[SoCalTiger]

1 minute ago, Tiger337 said:

I think Baddoo should have stayed in AAA longer and probably would have if it weren't for Meadows health problems.  

I thought he would finish the year in AAA. 
What do you think about Tork ? Do you think he will return to Detroit this season?

[Motor City Sonics]

Just now, SoCalTiger said:

I thought he would finish the year in AAA. 
What do you think about Tork ? Do you think he will return to Detroit this season?

I think they will try to get him back here because if he goes to AAA and struggles, well, there isn't a paper towel absorbent enough to wipe that amount of egg off of their face.  

[Tiger337]

6 minutes ago, SoCalTiger said:

I thought he would finish the year in AAA. 
What do you think about Tork ? Do you think he will return to Detroit this season?

If he hits in AAA, I think he'll be back.  He's not off to a great start.  

[Jim Cowan]

1 hour ago, buddha said:

akil baddoo has an ops+ of 6.  as a corner outfielder.

yeah, aj hinch is an idiot for not playing that guy.  lol.

Then leave him in Toledo where he was experiencing success.  Don't call him up, subject him to that bad juju from Hinch and Coolbaugh, and then sit him on the bench while Willi plays the outfield.  

[gehringer_2]

2 hours ago, SoCalTiger said:

G2 and others have also mentioned this point. It’s very astute and quite possible. 

what I worry about most is the team taking more or less one size fits all approach to hitters. I'm sure there are guys (probably like JD) who want every piece of data they can get - who take notes on everything that happens in the batter's box for a whole career. The problem is that there are also guys who spend a whole career just grippin' and rippin' and the more they try to analyze it the more paralyzed they can become. And players are everywhere in between. 

One of reasons I worry about this is because the tech gives us a lot of insight on where the batter wants the bat to be in a general way - what kind of path, angle etc. So since we know more about this stuff now, it gets a high priority. But the reality is that is not the most important thing for a batter in the majors. Most batters can get the bat to the spot they pick for it to be, but help with that is still fine and there are guys who will benefit from it. But the real trick for a successful hitter is in the visual/perceptual neurological hardware telling the batter where that spot is accurately - ie. where that spot he needs to get to is going to be when the ball gets to him,  and none of the swing analytics stuff actually helps with that part a bit. Now if a batter can process all the data and not have it impact his ability to just see-ball hit-ball, that's great. But if you have any number of guys who literally can't be thinking while they're hitting, then you better be willing to support alternate approaches for them in your org.

Now TBF, I have no idea what the Tigers actually do with their hitters - this is just what I worry they might be doing. Like everyone else, I'm just seeing the outcomes.

Edited July 25, 2022 by gehringer_2

[Jim Cowan]

1 hour ago, 1984Echoes said:

How is dumping Grossman and his .592 OPS silly?

I'd drop him right this very F'ing second if I was GM.

But you think dumping a .592 OPS is silly...?

Dumping him is what a good team would do, a good team with competent management in the front office and on the field.  As opposed to playing him every game and batting him third.  Surely "building up his trade value" is not what is going on here, no one is that stupid.  What is happening is that Hinch is loyal to him and thinks "I can get him going again".  The rest of the players aren't stupid either, they must have been side-eyeing Grossman for about 2 months now.  They know why he is in the lineup, it isn't on merit, and it doesn't convey the impression to the young players that winning is a priority.  This is a good way to lose the confidence of the clubhouse (again).

[casimir]

We can complain about Grossman's playing time (or any other position player).  But as I scan over the offensive numbers, I notice this team's best bats this season are an end of bench utility player and a backup catcher.  They've pretty much all sucked.  None of the position players deserve regular playing time on a major league baseball team this season.  But they have to put somebody on the field.  And so here we are.

[RandyMarsh]

Its almost as if the Tigers are afraid to dump guys with some track record with the fear that they will perform well by the team that picks them up which would make Al and AJ look worse.

As it stands they can just use the excuse that the guys all had bad years and there was nothing they could do about it. 

Edited July 25, 2022 by RandyMarsh

[buddha]

1 hour ago, casimir said:

We can complain about Grossman's playing time (or any other position player).  But as I scan over the offensive numbers, I notice this team's best bats this season are an end of bench utility player and a backup catcher.  They've pretty much all sucked.  None of the position players deserve regular playing time on a major league baseball team this season.  But they have to put somebody on the field.  And so here we are.

this board has clamored for a variety of minor leaguers to be brought up to the big club, and every time they are finally called up they proceed to suck.  baddoo and clemens being the best examples.  hill also.  you can throw torkelson in there as well.  greene has been ok but his lack of major league time was due to injury.

grossman is playing because there are no major league ready alternatives in the organization and meadows is injured.  that's it.  that's the reason.

he hits higher up in the lineup because historically he has been an on base machine and the lineup is so bad that his current .312 obp puts him in the top third of tigers hitters.

the chances are very good that anyone they brought up from toledo would be worse than grossman.  once september comes around and the team is still in last place, perhaps we'll see some minor leaguers get a shot.  or perhaps meadows will be back.  until then, grossman is probably the best choice they have.  sadly.

[1984Echoes]

8 hours ago, Jim Cowan said:

Dumping him is what a good team would do, a good team with competent management in the front office and on the field.  As opposed to playing him every game and batting him third.  Surely "building up his trade value" is not what is going on here, no one is that stupid.  What is happening is that Hinch is loyal to him and thinks "I can get him going again".  The rest of the players aren't stupid either, they must have been side-eyeing Grossman for about 2 months now.  They know why he is in the lineup, it isn't on merit, and it doesn't convey the impression to the young players that winning is a priority.  This is a good way to lose the confidence of the clubhouse (again).

Yes, exactly.

This is not emotional.

Not if every person on here (for the most part) has been asking for a Grossman DFA for at least 3 weeks, or more (just WAG'ing that...).

To Casimir's point: somebody has to play the games... Sure. No issue there. So... Grossman (and Barnhart, and I really want to move on from Schoop) aren't playing well enough to deserve a roster spot. 

Throw Baddoo out there and let him work through his issues. Call up Kerry Carpenter and give him a shot. It doesn't matter if they are horrendous.... So is Grossman. But we should be trying to find out if they can keep their head above water, or make adjustments, or (gasp!!!) even survive relatively well against MLB pitching (and shifts...).

If they struggle so bad that they have to be sent back down to AAA, I'm not stressed about that. You can try someone else from the 40... or even pick up a scrap heap MLB OF'er to fill in for the rest of the season (Hah! Grossman would obviously (wink-wink) still be available so you could always re-sign him for a month or two to finiosh the season...). But also: Clemens can play the OF. The Castrei can play out there. Haase can play out there. Short can be called up if needed (for the IF, if Clemens & Castrei are all over the place including the OF...).

On Schoop: I don't care about the defense any more. He's not the answer for this team. I have no interest whatsoever waiting him out to see if he can find his bat again just because he plays pretty good defense. Short also plays pretty good defense and his bat is not worse than Schoop's (this year). Give the job to Clemens on a permanent basis. Let's see what he's got. Again, if he falters, Short can be called up as a glove for 2B, and at least Harold can play there (I am NOT going to mention the other Castrei) as well.

It's time to start sifting through players who are the future and quit hanging onto vastly subpar players who are clearly the past and NOT the future.

Start sifting.

[mtutiger]

4 minutes ago, buddha said:

this board has clamored for a variety of minor leaguers to be brought up to the big club, and every time they are finally called up they proceed to suck.  baddoo and clemens being the best examples.  hill also.  you can throw torkelson in there as well.  greene has been ok but his lack of major league time was due to injury.

With Baddoo, is 20 ABs since his return (the equivalent of 5 games roughly) enough to make that justification?

Personally, I dont care whether they are worse or not at this moment...  theoretically, a guy like Baddoo factors into the future because he's controlled beyond this year and is only 23. Grossman is gone, one way or another, at years end.

[1984Echoes]

5 minutes ago, buddha said:

... the chances are very good that anyone they brought up from toledo would be worse than grossman...

I don't care.

IMO: DFA the non-producers who are not the future and start sifting through the kids. Period.

Now.

Start sifting.

[mtutiger]

I would add that fellow sub .600 OPS guy Jeimer Candelario is currently not a regular despite there not being "better options"... not sure what makes Grossman otherwise special, other than theoretically having trade value 

Edited July 25, 2022 by mtutiger

[buddha]

13 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

With Baddoo, is 20 ABs since his return (the equivalent of 5 games roughly) enough to make that justification?

Personally, I dont care whether they are worse or not at this moment...  theoretically, a guy like Baddoo factors into the future because he's controlled beyond this year and is only 23. Grossman is gone, one way or another, at years end.

he was sent down the first time for a reason.  that has not improved since he came back.  if anything, its gotten worse.

i'm fine with playing whomever because the season is over, but i suspect the reason grossman is playing is because he gives them a better chance to win than any of the other alternatives.  or it could be a matchup thing.

baddoo should really be in triple a honing his craft rather than at the majors struggling.  is it really conducive to his future to be here at this point?  its possible the tigers are picking and choosing their spots to play him depending on the matchup and what they think he needs to work on.  i dont know if thats true but it seems like a plausible explanation to me.

[mtutiger]

6 minutes ago, buddha said:

he was sent down the first time for a reason.  that has not improved since he came back.  if anything, its gotten worse.

IMO, we need to see more than just 20 ABs to make a determination one way or another. Particularly when they arent consistent ABs

[gehringer_2]

2 hours ago, buddha said:

baddoo should really be in triple a honing his craft rather than at the majors struggling.  is it really conducive to his future to be here at this point?

where-ever he is, he needs to be playing. So if the Tigers were not committed to playing him, they should not have brought him up. So whether you think he should be at Toledo or at Det, either way the fact is he needs to be playing everyday, and the fact that he isn't is just more Tiger player mismanagement.

[casimir]

11 hours ago, buddha said:

this board has clamored for a variety of minor leaguers to be brought up to the big club, and every time they are finally called up they proceed to suck.  baddoo and clemens being the best examples.  hill also.  you can throw torkelson in there as well.  greene has been ok but his lack of major league time was due to injury.

grossman is playing because there are no major league ready alternatives in the organization and meadows is injured.  that's it.  that's the reason.

he hits higher up in the lineup because historically he has been an on base machine and the lineup is so bad that his current .312 obp puts him in the top third of tigers hitters.

the chances are very good that anyone they brought up from toledo would be worse than grossman.  once september comes around and the team is still in last place, perhaps we'll see some minor leaguers get a shot.  or perhaps meadows will be back.  until then, grossman is probably the best choice they have.  sadly.

They would likely bring up Cameron or Hill if they moved Grossman.  Cameron hasn’t shown he’s not promotable and Hill hits like a pitcher and stays as healthy as a Detroit pitcher.