Week Seventeen: Detroit Lions (11-4) @ Dallas Cowboys (10-5)

[Mr.TaterSalad]

3 hours ago, Shinzaki said:

So far as screw jobs go...this one reminded me of the 1972 Olympic Men's basketball gold medal game. 

That or when home cooking by the Korean judges in the 1988 olympics gave the hometown kid Park Si-Hun a gold medal over the clearly superior Roy Jones Jr.

[Motor City Sonics]

5 hours ago, Shinzaki said:

So far as screw jobs go...this one reminded me of the 1972 Olympic Men's basketball gold medal game. 

How long did it take for that flag to come out.  Was it immediate or did they need to think about it.     This whole thing just smells rotten, like it wasn't an honest mistake at all.       

Use it, Lions.   Don't grouse about it.   Shove it back in their faces, boys. 

[djhutch]

On 12/30/2023 at 11:45 PM, Mr.TaterSalad said:

How was your Christmas ref? What the **** else would be be saying to the official other than reporting in as eligible?

 

On 12/31/2023 at 12:14 AM, buddha said:

then how do they determine who reported?  is it a timing thing?  did skipper report first?  did decker then report late because skipper had already reported?

the nfl will have some statement on it at some point and we'll get the ref's opinion.  skipper was pretty heated on the sideline.

There is no way Skipper reported before Decker.   There is no reason for Skipper to have reported.  The refs just announced the wrong player.  What I wonder is could the Lions hear that the wrong # was announced?  If so, could they not correct the ref - or audible out of it? 

[Motown Bombers]

37 minutes ago, djhutch said:

 

There is no way Skipper reported before Decker.   There is no reason for Skipper to have reported.  The refs just announced the wrong player.  What I wonder is could the Lions hear that the wrong # was announced?  If so, could they not correct the ref - or audible out of it? 

First, Goff wouldn't be able to audible out of it. With Skipper announced as eligible, any play they run out of the formation would be illegal formation. I suppose Goff could have re-arranged the line so the formation is correct, basically have Skipper and Decker trade places, but then the whole play is jacked up and you have players out of position. 

Second, if the Lions jump up and down and say it's Decker and not Skipper, that blows the discreteness of the play and tips off Dallas on what the play is. The Lions also did not have a timeout. I've also heard once it is announced it cannot be changed. Even so, the ref going and making a correction that it is Decker just draws more attention to the play. 

[buddha]

24 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

First, Goff wouldn't be able to audible out of it. With Skipper announced as eligible, any play they run out of the formation would be illegal formation. I suppose Goff could have re-arranged the line so the formation is correct, basically have Skipper and Decker trade places, but then the whole play is jacked up and you have players out of position. 

Second, if the Lions jump up and down and say it's Decker and not Skipper, that blows the discreteness of the play and tips off Dallas on what the play is. The Lions also did not have a timeout. I've also heard once it is announced it cannot be changed. Even so, the ref going and making a correction that it is Decker just draws more attention to the play. 

the only thing they could do would have been to have decker and skipper change places on the line.  which would also have tipped dallas off, of course.  the ref screwed up and cost them.  as simple as that.  all these bull**** announcements from the league and from media about the lions "getting too cute" is besides the point and a distraction from the real issue, which is Allen's failure to take the time to do his job correctly.

[RedRamage]

18 hours ago, Motown Bombers said:

First, Goff wouldn't be able to audible out of it. With Skipper announced as eligible, any play they run out of the formation would be illegal formation. I suppose Goff could have re-arranged the line so the formation is correct, basically have Skipper and Decker trade places, but then the whole play is jacked up and you have players out of position. 

Second, if the Lions jump up and down and say it's Decker and not Skipper, that blows the discreteness of the play and tips off Dallas on what the play is. The Lions also did not have a timeout. I've also heard once it is announced it cannot be changed. Even so, the ref going and making a correction that it is Decker just draws more attention to the play. 

Third: The PA announcer is not an official. The Lions, even if they heard 70, might have thought the PA announcer got it wrong given that the refs KNEW about the play ahead of time.

[oblong]

This is all new to me so bear with me:

If the ref didn't screw up and announces Decker as eligible... doesn't that mean that Dallas is more likely to cover him and the play doesn't work?

So yeah, the ref screwed up but without the screwup do the LIons even score?  Did his screwup make it more likely they had succeeded?

 

[RedRamage]

On 1/1/2024 at 6:36 PM, Motor City Sonics said:

How long did it take for that flag to come out.  Was it immediate or did they need to think about it.     This whole thing just smells rotten, like it wasn't an honest mistake at all.       

Use it, Lions.   Don't grouse about it.   Shove it back in their faces, boys. 

The flag comes out more than 30 seconds after the play was over. It's still very likely a mistake though. I mean we'll never know, but the refs all got together and chatted:

Ref1: Brad, didn't you say 70 was eligible?
Brad: Uh.....
Ref2: No, 68 was eligible, this is the play they told us about.
Ref1: Sure, but it was announced that 70 was eligible
Brad: Um....
Ref2: Didn't 68 report to you?
Brad: Ah, no... it... it was 70 that reported.
Ref2: Really? I thought I saw 68 go up to you.
Ref1: But you clearly said 70, right?
Brad: Yea...yeah... I said 70. It, ah, it was 70 who reported to me, just like all game. 68 never reported.
Ref2: You sure?
Brad: Yes, I'm sure. 70 reported, I'm throwing the flag.

The most logical, sensible this is that Brad got it wrong. Either he forgot which number it was and either saw 70 running and assumed or remembered 70 reported before and assumed or he got genuinely confused and forgot about the trick play.

I mean look at what the NFL did after the game: Official team gets downgraded and a video gets sent to all 32 teams telling them that it's very important to clearly indicate, both physically and verbally, to the refs when you're eligible. Of course the spin on the video is that the Lions didn't do this but if it was just the Lions who screwed up and no new procedures need to be given or emphasized, why does a message have to even go out?

[Tenacious D]

Probably the best execution of this meme yet

 

[RedRamage]

11 minutes ago, oblong said:

This is all new to me so bear with me:

If the ref didn't screw up and announces Decker as eligible... doesn't that mean that Dallas is more likely to cover him and the play doesn't work?

So yeah, the ref screwed up but without the screwup do the LIons even score?  Did his screwup make it more likely they had succeeded?

Yes, quite possibily, and yes.

The whole play is designed from the ground up to catch the defense napping:

• 70 have come in as eligible multiple times previously
• 68 (Decker) and 58 (Sewell) walk to the ref while 68 reports, so that maybe the defense will confuse 68/58
• 70 run on the field seemingly headed to the ref, but doesn't go to the ref.
• The Lions run an unbalanced OL to make it look like 68 is just a normal OT, not a TE. 58 lines up in a spot that might be considered a TE spot, further selling the possible confusion from above.
• The Lions receivers on that side line up in such a way to emphasize that one is further back, making it look like the other might be on the line (he wasn't) which would cover up 68, which would mean 68 wasn't an eligible receiver.
• 68 does a good job of selling the block before leaking into the endzone.

So, YES: the ref calling the wrong number meant that the defense probably wasn't concerned with 68. And YES: the screwup make it most likely that 68 was/would have been ignored. However: Given the play design there's still a very good shot that Decker isn't closely covered, makes the catch, and the Lions score the points.

[RatkoVarda]

Skipper was lined up at RG - so if they threw the ball to him, wouldn't that have been a penalty?

also, still waiting for the audio of what Decker said to Brad Allen

[RedRamage]

4 minutes ago, RatkoVarda said:

Skipper was lined up at RG - so if they threw the ball to him, wouldn't that have been a penalty?

also, still waiting for the audio of what Decker said to Brad Allen

Correct. If Skipper was eligible, he would have been lined up in an illegal formation. So, even if the Lions decided to check out of the play or Decker is covered and Goff decided to run the ball in, the Lions should have been flagged for that as well. Once 70 was wrongly announced as eligible the Lions were screwed no matter what. There was no possible way they could have run a legal play.

Correction: Once 70 was announced AND the Lions got in formation at the line.

[gehringer_2]

14 minutes ago, RedRamage said:

• 68 does a good job of selling the block before leaking into the endzone.

 

This is the key to play more than any pre-snap knowledge for the D. The LB or corner only has so much time to decide where he's most needed. If Decker is able to make a serious block and still release, and the Lions present a coverage need in the other direction, odds are still very good the rest of the D moves on and the play works. Plus just with his size on a good throw away from any defender he's not an exactly an easy cover even if someone tries to pick him up. Plays to receivers or RBs that are based on making a block 1st and then releasing once coverage has moved off work all the time even with regular skill position players that are always known eligible. 

Edited January 3 by gehringer_2

[RedRamage]

9 minutes ago, RatkoVarda said:

Skipper was lined up at RG - so if they threw the ball to him, wouldn't that have been a penalty?

also, still waiting for the audio of what Decker said to Brad Allen

If official audio exists of this, it'll never get out.

[gehringer_2]

I think in retrospect the Lions just ran the whole set-up too well. The way they choreographed Skipper running onto the field while it was Decker and Sewell actually checking in was set up so well it sucked in the official even though he had every reason and responsibility not to be. He heard Decker but he *saw* Skipper and his brain just went to autopilot. He wasn't concentrating on his job at a point where the Lions made the 'mistake' of assuming he would - because after, that is his job.

[MichiganCardinal]

50 minutes ago, RedRamage said:

Third: The PA announcer is not an official. The Lions, even if they heard 70, might have thought the PA announcer got it wrong given that the refs KNEW about the play ahead of time.

It's not the PA announcer who announces it, it's the referee through his field mic. Same as penalties, it's just the TV broadcast turns his mic down so not everything he says is broadcast to TV.

That said, I doubt Campbell or the coaching staff heard it or registered it. They're worried about other stuff and it's very loud. It should really be a given that the officials - who were provided the play before the game began - are on the same page and don't make such a dumb mistake as thinking you're talking to tall white guy #70 when it's actually tall white guy #68.

[RedRamage]

25 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

I think in retrospect the Lions just ran the whole set-up too well. The way they choreographed Skipper running onto the field while it was Decker and Sewell actually checking in was set up so well it sucked in the official even though he had every reason and responsibility not to be. He heard Decker but he *saw* Skipper and his brain just went to autopilot. He wasn't concentrating on his job at a point where the Lions made the 'mistake' of assuming he would - because after, that is his job.

100% my feeling as well. The Lions assumed the officials would do their job. They didn't.

[Sports_Freak]

2 hours ago, MichiganCardinal said:

It's not the PA announcer who announces it, it's the referee through his field mic. Same as penalties, it's just the TV broadcast turns his mic down so not everything he says is broadcast to TV.

That said, I doubt Campbell or the coaching staff heard it or registered it. They're worried about other stuff and it's very loud. It should really be a given that the officials - who were provided the play before the game began - are on the same page and don't make such a dumb mistake as thinking you're talking to tall white guy #70 when it's actually tall white guy #68.

With no timeouts, not much could have been done even if the Luons heard the referee screw up. He probably would have gotten them for a delay of game.

[MichiganCardinal]

14 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said:

With no timeouts, not much could have been done even if the Luons heard the referee screw up. He probably would have gotten them for a delay of game.

And still insisted that Skipper was who reported.

[buddha]

the whole thing makes me angry when i think about it.  blame the victim.  that's all this is.

and the lions front office sits there and takes it.  says nothing.  jerry jones got to mouth off, sheila should mouth off right back.  "rod wood is handling it."  yeah, he handled it so effectively the league issued a flawed video and lectured the lions even the video itself showed the lions doing nothing wrong.

stick up for your franchise, sheila!  all this "behind the scenes" garbage gets you nothing but walked over.  not only do you own a franchise, your company is a major advertiser for the league.  use some leverage for once!

wtf is jerry jones other than an oil leech?  throw your weight around and tell the league to kiss your ass.

[oblong]

51 minutes ago, buddha said:

the whole thing makes me angry when i think about it.  blame the victim.  that's all this is.

and the lions front office sits there and takes it.  says nothing.  jerry jones got to mouth off, sheila should mouth off right back.  "rod wood is handling it."  yeah, he handled it so effectively the league issued a flawed video and lectured the lions even the video itself showed the lions doing nothing wrong.

stick up for your franchise, sheila!  all this "behind the scenes" garbage gets you nothing but walked over.  not only do you own a franchise, your company is a major advertiser for the league.  use some leverage for once!

wtf is jerry jones other than an oil leech?  throw your weight around and tell the league to kiss your ass.

I was thinking about this last night as I had Valenti's show on briefly and they were sticking up for the morning host, and for Dan Campbell inviting "The Question".  Basically saying the media's soft now and questions like the morning show asked are considered "controversial".  The media today is basically partners with the leauge.  THey are all business partners.  The franchises, the TV networks, and the press.  They have to protect the NFL brand.  Some criticism will slip through, like Rex Ryan, but they will monitor how much.  Will the NFL Good Old Boys listen to "a girl"?

 

 

 

[buddha]

3 minutes ago, oblong said:

I was thinking about this last night as I had Valenti's show on briefly and they were sticking up for the morning host, and for Dan Campbell inviting "The Question".  Basically saying the media's soft now and questions like the morning show asked are considered "controversial".  The media today is basically partners with the leauge.  THey are all business partners.  The franchises, the TV networks, and the press.  They have to protect the NFL brand.  Some criticism will slip through, like Rex Ryan, but they will monitor how much.  Will the NFL Good Old Boys listen to "a girl"?

 

 

 

that's another reason why she should say something.  because she is a "girl."  throw it in their faces.  throw it right back at the ol boys club.  especially that senile old pervert jerry jones.

call bull**** for what it is.  break a few eggs.  its not like sitting there quietly and never saying anything has ever gotten the lions any respect or favorable decisions ever.

lets try a different approach.

[oblong]

6 minutes ago, buddha said:

that's another reason why she should say something.  because she is a "girl."  throw it in their faces.  throw it right back at the ol boys club.  especially that senile old pervert jerry jones.

call bull**** for what it is.  break a few eggs.  its not like sitting there quietly and never saying anything has ever gotten the lions any respect or favorable decisions ever.

lets try a different approach.

I know she has it in her because I know of a long time employee who was let go after she took over, along with dozens of others.  They basically went through the offices cleaning house.  These weren't football ops people. 

I suspect it was a lot of dudes just chilling out and coasting along in cushy jobs with no accountability.

 

[Jason_R]

Getting effed over by the officials is SOL. If Sheila is putting an end to SOL, she needs to extract a pound of flesh from Goodell and the NFL over this debacle. 

[Mr.TaterSalad]

I still want Brad Allen to be formally investigated by the league. Again, I'm not saying he's another Tim Donaghy, but I want the league to officially prove that to me.