Michigan Men's Basketball: AKA the Michigan revenue sport that doesn't have an uber jaded fanbase waiting in the dark for failure.

[RandyMarsh]

Caleb Love guard from UNC announced he is transferring to UM. Shooting percentages weren't good but he did average 17 a game last year. 

[buddha]

On 4/7/2023 at 11:47 AM, RandyMarsh said:

Caleb Love guard from UNC announced he is transferring to UM. Shooting percentages weren't good but he did average 17 a game last year. 

caleb love decommits after the university admissions department shoots down his credits.

terrance shannon 2.0.

[Hongbit]

Yet another failure by the useless AD.  

[MichiganCardinal]

The Michigan Admissions problem goes beyond athletics. I was accepted to multiple schools as a transfer student. The vast majority were totally chill. They approved over the maximum number allowable credits, and just lowered me the maximum allowable of 60, first semester junior status, using the credits that made the most sense for graduation requirements.

At Michigan though, they performed this comprehensive audit on my entire academic history. They threw out AP courses that had been previously granted by my prior college and evaluated the courses I had taken individually, deciding on a course-by-course basis whether there was a "Michigan equivalent" course. I remember receiving this ridiculous email asking for the syllabi for courses I had taken four years prior (which of course I didn't have and had to contact professors who barely remembered teaching the course, let alone me). This process led to courses that, while rigorous (more rigorous than some courses taught at UM), getting tossed, because the same course (or one "similar enough") wasn't offered at Michigan... Eventually Michigan offered me about 50 credits (midway sophomore status).

I thought it was about money, and wanting to nickel and dime me for every credit hour they could squeeze me for. It's not about money though if they're doing it to athletes on scholarship too. It must be some holier-than-thou prestige thing, but it's just incredibly stupid, and it's surely costing them both traditional and athletic transfers.

I'm sure they aren't alone in this crusade, but they are the only school I encountered that devoted more than a due diligence glance to care what credits I was coming in with.

[buddha]

michigan is the king of "holier than thou."

[gehringer_2]

31 minutes ago, MichiganCardinal said:

The Michigan Admissions problem goes beyond athletics.

'holier that thou' is one way to read it, but the institution has a vested interest in making transfering difficult - or at least as rigorous as what you experienced, because if they didn't, they aren't going to have any underclassmen. Whether insuring they do makes any difference to good policy for society writ large is debatable, but it's pretty easy to understand from the standpoint of the institution. In fact the freshmen I see also do a lot of course shopping outside the U and are always on the lookout for what the U will accept in terms of work done outside. That's just the reality today, but the U has to walk a line between being a PITA to the student body about it or risk becoming a degree mill for work done at other schools. 

However that all ends up affecting athletics is collateral damage of policies formulated without any particular focus on athletes.

Edited May 18, 2023 by gehringer_2

[MichiganCardinal]

Just now, gehringer_2 said:

'holier that thou' is one way to read it, but the institution has a vested interest in making transfering difficult - or at least as rigorous as what you experienced, because if they didn't, they aren't going to have any underclassmen. Whether insuring they do makes any difference to good policy for society writ large is debatable, but it's pretty easy to understand from the standpoint of the institution. In fact the freshmen I see also do a lot of course shopping outside the U and are always on the lookout for what the U will accept in terms of work done outside. The just reality today, but the U has to walk a line between being a PITA to the student body or risk becoming a degree mill for work done at other schools. 

I understand this and as a current grad student can respect it to an extent, but at the same time the dichotomy that exists between Michigan and other peer schools is puzzling.

Without looking it up, I can't imagine that Michigan has a problem of mass exodus with their freshman class before their sophomore year that needs to be remedied by harsh standards in the transfer class. It seems that other schools fill this gap with the best their admissions department can find, and the registrar trusts that those identified have taken quality coursework to "cut it", while M has two lines of review, with Admissions potentially saying "we want this person" and the registrar occasionally saying "that's nice, but we don't want the courses they come with"

I also think there is a difference between a transfer student (who takes courses precedent to enrollment usually for an ulterior purpose than graduating from M) versus an enrolled student at M taking coursework elsewhere (whose purpose is solely to graduate from M without spending 100% M prices). I think it's okay to evaluate those two students differently.

[gehringer_2]

7 minutes ago, MichiganCardinal said:

Without looking it up, I can't imagine that Michigan has a problem of mass exodus with their freshman class

this might be the single biggest difference between the Univeristy I experienced and today. When I was a student, attrition was sky high - I may be misremembering but I believe in the Engin School only 50% of admitted freshmen left with degrees. Of course this was the Vietnam era, and the college deferrment was enough to keep the incoming classes full enough they didn't care. There were little or no student services and nobody paid any attention to whether you were flunking out other than the people sending out out the probation letters. But today retention is a huge concern. Schools get seriously dinged on their rankings for it and losing the investment you made on a student you spent the effort to screen for admission is considered bad economics today, so attrition rates are a fraction what they were, and today an undergrad student has to work pretty hard to fall through the cracks, there are all kinds of people paying attention to when students start to fail, lots of rockets go off and resources are marshalled. Still doesn't always make a difference(!) but I always get a kick, and a personal sense of cognitive dissonance, from seeing a tenured prof in angst over a failing student even all these years out from my own experience! 

[MichiganCardinal]

1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said:

this might be the single biggest difference between the Univeristy I experienced and today. When I was a student, attrition was sky high - I may be misremembering but I believe in the Engin School only 50% of admitted freshmen left with degrees. Of course this was the Vietnam era, and the college deferrment was enough to keep the incoming classes full enough they didn't care. There were little or no student services and nobody paid any attention to whether you were flunking out other than the people sending out out the probation letters. But today retention is a huge concern. Schools get seriously dinged on their rankings for it and losing the investment you made on a student you spent the effort to screen for admission is considered bad economics today, so attrition rates are a fraction what they were, and today an undergrad student has to work pretty hard to fall through the cracks, there are all kinds of people paying attention to when students start to fail, lots of rockets go off and resources are marshalled. Still doesn't always make a difference(!) but I always get a kick, and a personal sense of cognitive dissonance, from seeing a tenured prof in angst over a failing student even all these years out from my own experience! 

Looks like Michigan self-reports a 96% freshman retention rate. (source). So the roughly 2,000 transfers Michigan accepts yearly make up for that 4% they lose, plus what they had previously planned on bringing in. If I had to guess probably 100 or less makeup the athletic portion of those.

It seems to me like they could be a little more forgiving to transfer applicants about what is accepted. But I'm a dumdum what do I know.

[gehringer_2]

32 minutes ago, MichiganCardinal said:

It seems to me like they could be a little more forgiving to transfer applicants about what is accepted

true enough - but it's a big bureaucracy - the ability to make fine level adjustments is probably lacking. Hard rules tend always to err to one extreme or the other. In the absence of rules you need judgment, and the freedom to apply it, which are antithetical to any bureaucratic ediface. Heaven forbid someone with authority goes off the rails or just makes a mistake, you end up in court, and USNews finds out about it before the rankings issue. 😱

Edited May 18, 2023 by gehringer_2

[romad1]

the MBB program took a serious turn when Juwan's son arrived.  Ugh.  

[buddha]

huge get for michigan bball today.  hopefully the admissions department doesnt ruin it.

[Deleterious]

 

[romad1]

I watched them club a baby seal the other night In UNC-Ashville and tonight against Youngstown State they appear to be more cohesive than I ever would have thought with all the turmoil. 

[buddha]

7 hours ago, romad1 said:

I watched them club a baby seal the other night In UNC-Ashville and tonight against Youngstown State they appear to be more cohesive than I ever would have thought with all the turmoil. 

no more jett howard taking every shot and playing no defense.  no more hunter dickinson to get mad about it and sulk.

[romad1]

4 hours ago, buddha said:

no more jett howard taking every shot and playing no defense.  no more hunter dickinson to get mad about it and sulk.

Having coached my own kid who wasn't a problem and watched how other coaches navigated the same thing where it was...I can see how it could be a team-damaging issue.

[buddha]

good win for michigan over one of the pre-season darlings.

[djhutch]

17 hours ago, buddha said:

good win for michigan over one of the pre-season darlings.

I was only able to listen to a bit in the 1st half - M was struggling on the defensive boards, but it sounds like they got that remedied in the 2nd half.

[romad1]

Not sure the quality of the opponent but they looked like they got themselves off the mat against Stanford in this Atlantis tournament.

[romad1]

Not sure who the richie riches are who can jett off to the Bahamas to watch a Basketball tournament.  Fun place though.  Definitely go to Atlantis if you can.

[buddha]

much needed win over iowa.  were going to need those if we're going to make the NIT.

[MichiganCardinal]

This thread title has really aged like a fine wine, hasn't it?

[romad1]

1 hour ago, MichiganCardinal said:

This thread title has really aged like a fine wine, hasn't it?

I don't sweat the MBB team like I do the football team.  They have been good and now are struggling.

What i am hearing tonight about Juwan Howard's future should be interesting. 

[djhutch]

15 hours ago, romad1 said:

I don't sweat the MBB team like I do the football team.  They have been good and now are struggling.

What i am hearing tonight about Juwan Howard's future should be interesting. 

I fully admit I'm very fair weather when it comes to the basketball team.  I loved the Fab Five, & I thought Howard would be a better recruiter.  I wanted it to work bad & it isn't - so I've kinda lost interest.

[Motor City Sonics]

On 12/10/2023 at 10:45 PM, romad1 said:

What i am hearing tonight about Juwan Howard's future should be interesting. 

shouldn't be one.   He should be out. Enough of this nonsense.