Where Do Things End With Vlad? (h/t romad1)

[romad1]

Watching the morning shows one would think Ukraine was at the gates of Moscow.   Jeez, people..  There are still decisions to be made.  Resources still needed by the good guys. Do not let up. 

[romad1]

 

[Jim Cowan]

He's a mass murderer, but a puny little mass murderer compared to his hero.

[chasfh]

18 hours ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

If you're Ukraine/the west, do you have many means or capability to remove him from power? Can you pay an oligarch and some top military people on the DL to do that? How do we remove him from power without a full-scale nuclear war happening? It seems like the only realistically safe and effective model for doing so comes from within his own apparatchik/military/oligarchs.

About the only safe way I can think of to get Putin replaced is to backchannel some incentives to people on the next level or two down and convince them that Russia can reconnect with the rest of the first world without Putin at the top.

The danger is that most if not all the the people on those next couple of levels down are completely simpatico with Putin and that reconnecting a first world run by the United States is not at all an incentive for them, and such an offer hardens them and increases the chances for a disastrous outcome. 

Edited May 24, 2022 by chasfh

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, romad1 said:

Watching the morning shows one would think Ukraine was at the gates of Moscow.   Jeez, people..  There are still decisions to be made.  Resources still needed by the good guys. Do not let up. 

so have all our arm chair analysts passed their fool proof plans to Zelenskyy for how to evict the Russians who are still moving westward - albeit at a snail's pace.

[romad1]

42 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

so have all our arm chair analysts passed their fool proof plans to Zelenskyy for how to evict the Russians who are still moving westward - albeit at a snail's pace.

There is evidence the Russians are learning from their absolute baffling idiocy of the first two months.  that's scary. 

[mtutiger]

3 hours ago, romad1 said:

Henry Kissinger is beclowning himself.  Again.  How much silver has crossed his palm? 

He never passes up a chance to be wrong, does he?

[Tigeraholic1]

 

 

[romad1]

not great 

 

[romad1]

 

[Jim Cowan]

On 5/24/2022 at 11:40 AM, mtutiger said:

He never passes up a chance to be wrong, does he?

Ha ha, Zelenskyy pointed out that at the time of Munich in 1938 Kissinger was 15 years old.  Surely this is the last time that we ever hear from Kissinger isn't it?  

[1984Echoes]

Damn... he's 99 ?!?!

[romad1]

15 hours ago, Jim Cowan said:

Ha ha, Zelenskyy pointed out that at the time of Munich in 1938 Kissinger was 15 years old.  Surely this is the last time that we ever hear from Kissinger isn't it?  

That's amazing.  Kissinger was actually in the US Army when it liberated concentration camps and he lost family to the holocaust.  Why be such a shit, Henry? 

[ben9753]

6 hours ago, 1984Echoes said:

Damn... he's 99 ?!?!

Only 98. He’ll be 99 tomorrow. 

[1776]

On 5/24/2022 at 11:40 AM, mtutiger said:

He never passes up a chance to be wrong, does he?

Read, ‘The Yom Kippur War’ by Abraham Rabinovich. Kissinger worked his ass off in that war. Thank God he held the office he did at that point in history. Shalom.

[Jim Cowan]

Well maybe, but what a sick burn by Zelenskyy lol!  He must just roll his eyes every time an "expert" has "advice" on "negotiations".  Here is his position, it isn't very complicated:

1.  GTFO

2.  Take all your battlefield garbage with you

3.  Pay for the property damage

4.  Compensate the murder victims

5.  Return everyone who has been kidnapped 

It's straightforward.  I laugh every time someone suggests some sort of compromise, they've never met a Ukrainian I guess lol!

[Tigeraholic1]

 

 

[mtutiger]

14 hours ago, 1776 said:

Read, ‘The Yom Kippur War’ by Abraham Rabinovich. Kissinger worked his ass off in that war. Thank God he held the office he did at that point in history. Shalom.

Very well may be right, but he's kinda lost the plot as of late.

[chasfh]

21 hours ago, 1776 said:

Read, ‘The Yom Kippur War’ by Abraham Rabinovich. Kissinger worked his ass off in that war. Thank God he held the office he did at that point in history. Shalom.

And after you read that book, read "The Trial of Henry Kissinger" by Christopher Hitchens, which presents Kissinger's involvement in a series of alleged war crimes in Vietnam, Bangladesh, Chile, Cyprus and East Timor.

[romad1]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

And after you read that book, read "The Trial of Henry Kissinger" by Christopher Hitchens, which presents Kissinger's involvement in a series of alleged war crimes in Vietnam, Bangladesh, Chile, Cyprus and East Timor.

That sits in my bookshelf.  

Hitchens was a very interesting voice.

[romad1]

Good

[chasfh]

I’m glad we are working to repel the Russians, but I can’t shake this feeling that somehow arming Ukraine is going to boomerang back on us, like arming the mujahideen did. Not in the exact same way, of course, just in general. Hope I’m wrong. I don’t know. Stupid feelings.

[smr-nj]

No, I don’t see that chas.  (And of course, I hope I’m wrong) 

Now, of course, as we have unfortunately seen in our own country, all it takes is one over the edge type of leader to send a whole country down the path to oblivion,  so I guess we should never say never. I just don’t see Ukraine going the way of some Middle East entities.

[romad1]

27 minutes ago, smr-nj said:

No, I don’t see that chas.  (And of course, I hope I’m wrong) 

Now, of course, as we have unfortunately seen in our own country, all it takes is one over the edge type of leader to send a whole country down the path to oblivion,  so I guess we should never say never. I just don’t see Ukraine going the way of some Middle East entities.

There are ways in which we are giving a LOT of help to the Ukrainians that we have not given another country since 1942-45.  That goes for intelligence, that goes for weapons technology.  I think its a given that Russia and China are salivating over the potential to get sources and methods and tech from that when the dust settles.  

That said, the Ukrainians are not getting everything and they are pushing for everything because that's their card to play.  Our interests align with their defeating Putin in such a way as it cripples his ability to do this again for a long while.  If it ends up with him being forced out or further isolated, all the better.  If it teaches Xi a lesson in better manners equals better partnerships, also very good. 

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, romad1 said:

 

That said, the Ukrainians are not getting everything 

Saw a side by side pic the other day showing where one of the top end electronics packages had been removed from the M777s that were sent.

 

obviously the long term ambition is to move the east/ideological border east to include Ukraine, the hope being that this ‘experience’ with the Russians will pull them permanently into “Europe” as their world view. Could fail, but a chance the West probably needs to take. 
 

of course as I write this I can’t help but think the same args were made about Iraq. The counter arg would be Ukraine is already much closer to the West than Iraq was/is which improves the odds. 

Edited May 28, 2022 by gehringer_2