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Tigers Hire Scott Harris as President of Baseball Operations


oblong

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the 2023 rotation is currently fronted by 2 question marks, ERod and Manning, followed by 6-8 more questions marks, Turnbull, Faedo, Wentz, Madden, Olson, Flores, Garcia .... Mize won't pitch in 2023. Skubal will miss 1/2 the season. Hinch was saying that both Hill and Brieske are looking better as relievers. Everyone either a rookie or coming off injury. Someone, unfortunately, will need TJ in 2023. No idea who, but that's going to happen. they need a starter of consequence.

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13 minutes ago, Stanley70 said:

They have to figure out what they have in Mize, Turnball, Manning, Skubal, and Breiske. Not sure why they bring in a SP by free agency or trade when they have those guys plus Erod and a few decent prospects getting closer to being ready.

Skubal's return is hopefully May 2023, who knows whether he will have the same stuff.  Mize is out probably until 2024.  Turnbull is a maybe for 2023.  If we can get ONE of these two guys back in form by 2024 that would be good.  Two seems hopeful, three seems like a pipe-dream.  I would be surprised to see any of them pitch up to their previous standards in 2023.

Breiske, Hill, Alexander, Hutch, Garcia, Faedo....love what they've done this year to fil lin for 5-15 starts each, but everybody knows that these are all marginal pitchers, not key parts of any future winning team.  None of them has above average command, or out-pitches, or groundball production, or more than 1 or 2 reliable pitches in their repertoire.  None of these guys should be counted on as a solution.

So yeah you've got ERod, who should be able to give you 25 starts with 15 QS and an above-average ERA.

You have Manning, who has turned in a decent 60 IP this year with a nice fastball, plus control, below average secondary pitches, and an unsustainably low HR/FB% of 7%....projects to an average starter, not bad, hopefully he can pull down 20+ starts in 2023 that sustain/improve on his current profile as a hopefully-middle-of-the-pack SP.

Wentz is kinda interesting, he might turn into a decent starter, if he can stay healthy.  Flores might see some action in Detroit in 2023, and Madden projects to 2024, they look like they might be decent or better.  Maybe one of these guys pans out as an effective SP?

Seems to me that we would be in great shape if we had four guys from the above list throwing 20+ starts effectively for them in 2024.  In my opinion, even if things worked out, they would still need at least one more good pitcher from outside the system to build a winning rotation in 2024.  I'm betting two.  

13 minutes ago, Stanley70 said:

When it comes to every day players they may or may not have needs a damn near every position. Whatever offensive virus infected the team last year must be eradicated and they need to determine what they have in guys like Badoo, Tork, etc. There are a few prospects as well that are not the can't miss type that they should see what they have in as well.

Baddoo is basically a "hoped for" guy at this point, I hope that he can churn out a decent season or three a la Boesch.

Tork is still a premiere prospect who MUST be a 3+ WAR player for this team, and based on how he's been hitting since he came back from Toledo, that seems increasingly likely....if not, we are in worse shape than I thought.

I think Carpenter, Kreidler, Lipcius, Perez, Dingler, and others will be getting a shot at playing time in 2023/24. 

I feel pretty confident that Carpenter and Kriedler can add some value, and I think Carpenter can be a 2 WAR player in 2023.

I think Lipcius might also push out some of the potential deadwood (Candy) in the IF with some higher quality play. 

Perez and Dingler might be valuable semi-regular/bench players by 2024.

Hopefully some/most of the above positional prospects (other than Tork and Greene, who project to be above average or better) wind up being average players in their respective roles, but I don't think anyone sees positional all-stars coming out of the minors within the next couple of years.

13 minutes ago, Stanley70 said:

It sucks but money can't fix this team overnight. And given the uncertainty of so many players it is debatable of where to even spend it.

No ONE thing can "fix" this team overnight, that's never been my claim.  

But hoping for or expecting this roster and minor-league system to produce a winning team is a total pipe-dream. 

Most or everything that broke this year has to improve or bounce back to normal levels in order for them to chase 80 wins.  In order to build a winner without waiting 3-5 years, they were always going to need at least one or two more good players from outside of the system to make it happen. 

Bottom line:  if Harris is going to build a winner in less than 3-5 years, before 2024 starts, they will be adding at least two good multi-year FAs. 

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I don’t think Harris needs a year to evaluate the current roster and minor leagues. I am sure he has an evaluation in place of all major league and minor league players at all times. That’s why he’s here and a rising star in the game. A person that sharp probably had a good idea how to proceed right now. I expect a large turnover in personnel this off season. 

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44 minutes ago, RatkoVarda said:

the 2023 rotation is currently fronted by 2 question marks, ERod and Manning, followed by 6-8 more questions marks, Turnbull, Faedo, Wentz, Madden, Olson, Flores, Garcia .... Mize won't pitch in 2023. Skubal will miss 1/2 the season. Hinch was saying that both Hill and Brieske are looking better as relievers. Everyone either a rookie or coming off injury. Someone, unfortunately, will need TJ in 2023. No idea who, but that's going to happen. they need a starter of consequence.

I think it's idiocy to spend any money on starting pitching this winter.

All of those question marks MUST be answered first.

A huge NO on a FA starting pitcher. Unless he's a AAAA guy just for depth that's stashed at Toledo or comes up if/ when needed.

Now... if there's a major trade opportunity (doubtful but ya' never know...) or major position player FA opportunity (IE: Correa)... sure. Or even a shut-down reliever that we can advantageously add... sure.

But on SP's... just say NO.

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Just now, 1984Echoes said:

I think it's idiocy to spend any money on starting pitching this winter.

All of those question marks MUST be answered first.

A huge NO on a FA starting pitcher. Unless he's a AAAA guy just for depth that's stashed at Toledo or comes up if/ when needed.

Now... if there's a major trade opportunity (doubtful but ya' never know...) or major position player FA opportunity (IE: Correa)... sure. Or even a shut-down reliever that we can advantageously add... sure.

But on SP's... just say NO.

this thinking is how you get Drew Hutchinson starting 20 games for your team

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5 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

I think it's idiocy to spend any money on starting pitching this winter.

All of those question marks MUST be answered first.

A huge NO on a FA starting pitcher. Unless he's a AAAA guy just for depth that's stashed at Toledo or comes up if/ when needed.

Now... if there's a major trade opportunity (doubtful but ya' never know...) or major position player FA opportunity (IE: Correa)... sure. Or even a shut-down reliever that we can advantageously add... sure.

But on SP's... just say NO.

Why? Seems to me the most efficient way to improve your team quickly is through SP. There are only five, and upgrading your worst 2 SP improves 40% of you staff. Thats huge. Compare that with trying to improve 40% of your lineup or BP.

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49 minutes ago, sabretooth said:

Skubal's return is hopefully May 2023, who knows whether he will have the same stuff.  Mize is out probably until 2024.  Turnbull is a maybe for 2023.  If we can get ONE of these two guys back in form by 2024 that would be good.  Two seems hopeful, three seems like a pipe-dream.  I would be surprised to see any of them pitch up to their previous standards in 2023.

Breiske, Hill, Alexander, Hutch, Garcia, Faedo....love what they've done this year to fil lin for 5-15 starts each, but everybody knows that these are all marginal pitchers, not key parts of any future winning team.  None of them has above average command, or out-pitches, or groundball production, or more than 1 or 2 reliable pitches in their repertoire.  None of these guys should be counted on as a solution.

So yeah you've got ERod, who should be able to give you 25 starts with 15 QS and an above-average ERA.

You have Manning, who has turned in a decent 60 IP this year with a nice fastball, plus control, below average secondary pitches, and an unsustainably low HR/FB% of 7%....projects to an average starter, not bad, hopefully he can pull down 20+ starts in 2023 that sustain/improve on his current profile as a hopefully-middle-of-the-pack SP.

Wentz is kinda interesting, he might turn into a decent starter, if he can stay healthy.  Flores might see some action in Detroit in 2023, and Madden projects to 2024, they look like they might be decent or better.  Maybe one of these guys pans out as an effective SP?

Seems to me that we would be in great shape if we had four guys from the above list throwing 20+ starts effectively for them in 2024. 

 

What a stream of horseshit.

 

49 minutes ago, sabretooth said:

In my opinion, even if things worked out, they would still need at least one more good pitcher from outside the system to build a winning rotation in 2024.  I'm betting two.  

 

Asinine. Pure insanity.

 

49 minutes ago, sabretooth said:

 ... Baddoo is basically a "hoped for" guy at this point, I hope that he can churn out a decent season or three a la Boesch.

Tork is still a premiere prospect who MUST be a 3+ WAR player for this team, and based on how he's been hitting since he came back from Toledo, that seems increasingly likely....if not, we are in worse shape than I thought.

I think Carpenter, Kreidler, Lipcius, Perez, Dingler, and others will be getting a shot at playing time in 2023/24. 

I feel pretty confident that Carpenter and Kriedler can add some value, and I think Carpenter can be a 2 WAR player in 2023.

I think Lipcius might also push out some of the potential deadwood (Candy) in the IF with some higher quality play. 

Perez and Dingler might be valuable semi-regular/bench players by 2024.

Hopefully some/most of the above positional prospects (other than Tork and Greene, who project to be above average or better) wind up being average players in their respective roles, but I don't think anyone sees positional all-stars coming out of the minors within the next couple of years.

No ONE thing can "fix" this team overnight, that's never been my claim.  

But hoping for or expecting this roster and minor-league system to produce a winning team is a total pipe-dream. 

Most or everything that broke this year has to improve or bounce back to normal levels in order for them to chase 80 wins.  In order to build a winner without waiting 3-5 years, they were always going to need at least one or two more good players from outside of the system to make it happen. 

Bottom line:  if Harris is going to build a winner in less than 3-5 years, before 2024 starts, they will be adding at least two good multi-year FAs. 

 

A little bit better.

 

49 minutes ago, sabretooth said:

... But hoping for or expecting this roster and minor-league system to produce a winning team is a total pipe-dream. 

 

Excuse me? No, it's NOT a fucking pipe dream.

 

49 minutes ago, sabretooth said:

... Most or everything that broke this year has to improve or bounce back to normal levels in order for them to chase 80 wins.  In order to build a winner without waiting 3-5 years, they were always going to need at least one or two more good players from outside of the system to make it happen. 

Bottom line:  if Harris is going to build a winner in less than 3-5 years, before 2024 starts, they will be adding at least two good multi-year FAs. 

 

I'm not going to agree, or disagree with this. This may, or may not, be correct.

But this isn't answered until all the broke pieces that are still around in 2024, and the new pieces coming up, show us what they can or cannot do in 2023.

which again, and to your point, shouldn't exclude this team from signing or trading for a key player (Correa or otherwise). If the opportunity is there, do it. But I have zero interest in finding another Grossman or Schoop to add to the team. It's Correa (or similar level of talent or better) or Bust for me. It's time to let the kids show what they can do, which might take another year or two, before making moves that add icing to the cake. But the cake needs to be baked with these kids, not with more crappy FA's that don't do squat long-term for this team.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by 1984Echoes
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10 minutes ago, RatkoVarda said:

this thinking is how you get Drew Hutchinson starting 20 games for your team

Bull SHIT and you know it!

Do I need to list every freaking starting pitcher injury we've had this year?

That LED to Hutch getting 20 starts?

Because you know the freaking answer to that, don't you?

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8 minutes ago, ben9753 said:

Why? Seems to me the most efficient way to improve your team quickly is through SP. There are only five, and upgrading your worst 2 SP improves 40% of you staff. Thats huge. Compare that with trying to improve 40% of your lineup or BP.

NOPE.

Not interested.

Between Manning, Eduardo, Skubal, Wentz, Turnbull, Faedo, Brieske, Hill, Alexander, Olson, maybe even Mize, and others that will be throwing their hats in the ring (Madden/ eventually Jobe) I've got 10 starters. Not just for 2023, but also 2024, 2025, 2026, 2027...

Why would I want to pollute the rotation with 2 garbage FA starting pitchers.

No freaking way. NO. ABSOLUTELY NOT.

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4 hours ago, Stanley70 said:

They are where they are and the prudent play is to treat 2023 like another year of rebuilding, which again what a team coming off 100 losses should do. If they get some luck on the health of their young starters and a couple of the decent prospects they have pan out they will have something to build around.

The Tigers had 4 years of losing after Dombrowski took over until they had a winning season.  This is after a previous 8 year losing streak.  The Tigers are in a similar position now, so I wouldn't expect a winning season until 2027 at the earliest.  

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2 hours ago, Stanley70 said:

They have to figure out what they have in Mize, Turnball, Manning, Skubal, and Breiske. Not sure why they bring in a SP by free agency or trade when they have those guys plus Erod and a few decent prospects getting closer to being ready.

To be fair, half those guys are always on the injured list.  

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1 hour ago, oblong said:

well he gets paid to figure this all out, not us....  I'm not worrying about it.  Just nice to have some direction now. 

Indeed.

I think most folks, and I'm as guilty as anyone else, look at free agency as the way to bring in different MLB ready talent.  I'm interested to see what they do on the trade front this offseason.

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40 minutes ago, bobrob2004 said:

The Tigers had 4 years of losing after Dombrowski took over until they had a winning season.  This is after a previous 8 year losing streak.  The Tigers are in a similar position now, so I wouldn't expect a winning season until 2027 at the earliest.  

Tigers have some pitching. They are so bad record-wise I think we tend to underestimate it, but the system is in pretty good shape arm wise even if Mize ends up a miss. The hitting is the problem. Greene has held his own. Tork looks good in his second tour, Baez should be over his adjustment issues. That's one third of a line-up and that is a long way from being competitive. They have a couple more promising bats in the system in Meadows and Crouch. And then a big wild card in Austin Meadows. And almost no trade capital. A lot of work to do.

Still, I would expect a GM who actually does immediately upgrade the team's ability to make more intelligent and strategic personnel decisions coupled to the Ilitch resources *should* be able to get this team next year at least to where it was supposed to be this year - which is to say - watchable again.

Edited by gehringer_2
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This team, both on the active roster, and in the farm system has a lot of dead wood. This team is kind of a fixer-upper house right now. The most important thing is to get rid of the copious amounts of dead wood throughout the organization. After that is cleared away, there will be a more clear picture of where the team is at.

 I am of the opinion that the pitching situation can be pruned around the edges, but there are too many rehab and injured pitchers to do much. I am more inclined to be aggressive on the position player side of the equation. While it may not to be clear what all of the moves should be, some of them are clear.

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Well they say you can never have enough pitching so who knows ? I don't think Mize or Skubal can be counted on at all next year. maybe Skubull but with our luck doubtful. Turnbull will be pitching the first year after TJ and everyone not named Verlander often struggles so he's not solid. Everyone after Manning ( and he was shut down for arm trouble this year) and Erod ( who disappeared) is either a second year guy ( see Badoo.Akil) or rookie so I would guess they will add starting pitcher(s) at reasonable cost or via trade. 

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