gehringer_2 Posted February 10, 2022 Share Posted February 10, 2022 The problem for us spectators in one of these episodes is that we can't know who is serious and who is posing. At this point Russia and the West are like two baboons approaching the water hole from opposite sides, howling and barring their teeth, both knowing that a big enough show might get them what they want without a fight, neither knowing if the other will actually fight over the right for the 1st drink or not. Basically nothing has changed in primate psychology for 10 million years. History does show that sometimes you have to act like a hawk to live like a dove. I remember in my youth there was big controversy over the MX missile in Europe. I was charged up about it, wrote all my congresscriters in opposition. So we built the missiles and in the end what we got was all the missiles removed. I remember Carl Levin wrote me a nice letter when it was over that said - politely "See, you could have trusted me on this....." And that's the other problem, trust in the wisdom of our own gov is lacking anymore, and sadly for pretty good reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfife Posted February 10, 2022 Author Share Posted February 10, 2022 6 hours ago, ewsieg said: I know most of you are all gung ho on heading into Ukraine and fighting at all costs cool story Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewsieg Posted February 10, 2022 Share Posted February 10, 2022 35 minutes ago, pfife said: cool story cool story Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewsieg Posted February 10, 2022 Share Posted February 10, 2022 6 hours ago, gehringer_2 said: The problem for us spectators in one of these episodes is that we can't know who is serious and who is posing. At this point Russia and the West are like two baboons approaching the water hole from opposite sides, howling and barring their teeth, both knowing that a big enough show might get them what they want without a fight, neither knowing if the other will actually fight over the right for the 1st drink or not. Basically nothing has changed in primate psychology for 10 million years. History does show that sometimes you have to act like a hawk to live like a dove. I remember in my youth there was big controversy over the MX missile in Europe. I was charged up about it, wrote all my congresscriters in opposition. So we built the missiles and in the end what we got was all the missiles removed. I remember Carl Levin wrote me a nice letter when it was over that said - politely "See, you could have trusted me on this....." And that's the other problem, trust in the wisdom of our own gov is lacking anymore, and sadly for pretty good reasons. You know I wasn't happy with how we got out of Afghanistan, but i've been vocal that I was happy we did get out. But look at the criticism that many on the left fought against in terms of Biden's handling of getting out of Afghanistan. The war hawks came out in force, and while they made some legitimate points, they overran MSM. If you don't believe me, go back and look at pfife's posting during that time, his head nearly exploded. My concern is they are back and getting the full support of MSM to deliver a message that we need to stand up to Russia no matter the costs. That scares me and no one else seems concerned. Biden may not be the GOP, but it's not like the democrats fought against the 'forever' wars we've been dealing with my adult life. So the fact that Biden publicly stated that the russian/germany pipeline would not be finished if they invaded was welcome news as it tends to show he's going to use economic weight to fight this, which I feel we're in a better position to do. That said, from MSM news you don't hear the fact that there isn't much value of us being involved in this matter nor some truth's which don't support us (promise regarding nato expansion, the fact that many Ukraine's feel like they are still apart of Russia, the fact that Ukraine itself felt we were exacerbating the issue). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewsieg Posted February 10, 2022 Share Posted February 10, 2022 7 hours ago, 1984Echoes said: The spin is that he's protecting sources and methods and the reporter knows it. He's not going to get the "evidence" that he wants because that particular information is still classified. It's not hard to pick up on this... And it still says nothing of the sort that we are "heading into Ukraine". What exactly did you think we should be getting out of this? You can argue what you feel I'm trying to say, but this exchange is a joke. "This comes from intelligence information that has been declassified" Then he states the evidence is him simply stating it and says he can print out the transcription of the meeting as evidence. Ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewsieg Posted February 10, 2022 Share Posted February 10, 2022 Just now, ewsieg said: You can argue what you feel I'm trying to say, but this exchange is a joke. "This comes from intelligence information that has been declassified" Then he states the evidence is him simply stating it and says he can print out the transcription of the press conference as evidence. Ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted February 10, 2022 Share Posted February 10, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, ewsieg said: You know I wasn't happy with how we got out of Afghanistan, but i've been vocal that I was happy we did get out. But look at the criticism that many on the left fought against in terms of Biden's handling of getting out of Afghanistan. The war hawks came out in force, and while they made some legitimate points, they overran MSM. If you don't believe me, go back and look at pfife's posting during that time, his head nearly exploded. My concern is they are back and getting the full support of MSM to deliver a message that we need to stand up to Russia no matter the costs. That scares me and no one else seems concerned. Biden may not be the GOP, but it's not like the democrats fought against the 'forever' wars we've been dealing with my adult life. So the fact that Biden publicly stated that the russian/germany pipeline would not be finished if they invaded was welcome news as it tends to show he's going to use economic weight to fight this, which I feel we're in a better position to do. That said, from MSM news you don't hear the fact that there isn't much value of us being involved in this matter nor some truth's which don't support us (promise regarding nato expansion, the fact that many Ukraine's feel like they are still apart of Russia, the fact that Ukraine itself felt we were exacerbating the issue). My understanding is that most Ukrainians want nothing to do with Russia at this point. Hence its relationship with the west being one nexus of this conflagration Edited February 10, 2022 by mtutiger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted February 10, 2022 Share Posted February 10, 2022 Just now, mtutiger said: My understanding is that most Ukrainians want nothing to do with Russia at this point. Hence the conflict to begin with. Russia wants Ukraine wiped off the map. Or as much as they can do successfully do that. Russia has no interest in a successful Ukrainian Democracy right next door. And Putin believes Ukraine should be a part of Russia, even if forcefully annexed. And while Russia is legitimately upset that NATO could be also parked at their doorstep (if Ukraine were ever successfully able to gain entry... which is not looking likely for at least the next 10 years btw...); Russia is using their "negotiating position" on NATO and NATO's refusal to change their modus operandi as an excuse to invade and kill Ukrainians. And their Democracy. The conflict is not tied to Ukrainians not wanting to roll over for Russia... but... yes, Ukrainians want nothing to do with Russia... that much is absolutely true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted February 10, 2022 Share Posted February 10, 2022 1 hour ago, ewsieg said: It wasn't a transcript of the press meeting, unless I am misremembering... It was a transcript of the intelligence meeting reviewing the evidence, with redactions. Again, my memory is bad so even though I just listened to it yesterday I may be off on exactly what he said... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewsieg Posted February 10, 2022 Share Posted February 10, 2022 8 minutes ago, mtutiger said: My understanding is that most Ukrainians want nothing to do with Russia at this point. Hence its relationship with the west being one nexus of this conflagration Most, but not all. Last time I saw a majority really didn't like Russia, but I don't think it was even 60%. Imagine having a country that isn't only openly hostile to you, but has actually invaded and taken parts of your country just recently and 40% are like, yeah, IDK, whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted February 10, 2022 Share Posted February 10, 2022 Any idea how the Ukrainian poll about Russia breaks down along age lines? I’d be interested in seeing whether there’s a substantial difference one way or another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted February 10, 2022 Share Posted February 10, 2022 4 minutes ago, ewsieg said: Most, but not all. Last time I saw a majority really didn't like Russia, but I don't think it was even 60%. Imagine having a country that isn't only openly hostile to you, but has actually invaded and taken parts of your country just recently and 40% are like, yeah, IDK, whatever. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/war-with-russia-has-pushed-ukrainians-toward-the-west/ This article from 538 kinda details some of the polling from Ukrainians. Its a bit all over the place, but the trend line among the population clearly is trending west. Make of that what you will, but it seems like a clear majority do not want to be in Russia's sphere Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted February 10, 2022 Share Posted February 10, 2022 8 hours ago, gehringer_2 said: History does show that sometimes you have to act like a hawk to live like a dove. Or as Reagan said, "peace through strength". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cowan Posted February 10, 2022 Share Posted February 10, 2022 I was happy that the reporter mentioned the WMD's, that was the first thing that I thought of. That was the last time that anyone should have trusted anything from "the intelligence community" without seeing actual evidence. Everyone understands that sources need to be protected, but liars need to understand that they won't be believed without providing hard evidence. Imagine saying "the fact that I am stating it is evidence". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted February 10, 2022 Share Posted February 10, 2022 (edited) 10 hours ago, gehringer_2 said: The problem for us spectators in one of these episodes is that we can't know who is serious and who is posing. At this point Russia and the West are like two baboons approaching the water hole from opposite sides, howling and barring their teeth, both knowing that a big enough show might get them what they want without a fight, neither knowing if the other will actually fight over the right for the 1st drink or not. Basically nothing has changed in primate psychology for 10 million years. History does show that sometimes you have to act like a hawk to live like a dove. I remember in my youth there was big controversy over the MX missile in Europe. I was charged up about it, wrote all my congresscriters in opposition. So we built the missiles and in the end what we got was all the missiles removed. I remember Carl Levin wrote me a nice letter when it was over that said - politely "See, you could have trusted me on this....." And that's the other problem, trust in the wisdom of our own gov is lacking anymore, and sadly for pretty good reasons. I have a fine memory of a night I spent driving to one of the GLCM bases in Belgium with my captain to snag a bunch of furniture from the just built but also just closed facility. It was something like built in April and now closing in January the following year. It was a snowy January in the Ardennes and I was driving the same roads Patton did to approach the base from the South. I was grooving on the historicalness of it. That was HW Bush and Brent Scowcroft who knew a thing or two about collective security. This here link says my dates might have been slightly off but essentially accurate. Florennes - United States Nuclear Forces (globalsecurity.org) Edited February 10, 2022 by romad1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigeraholic1 Posted February 10, 2022 Share Posted February 10, 2022 (edited) My nephew is an Airborne Ranger was just emergency deployed first Poland but my sister just texted me he landed in Ukraine...... Edited February 10, 2022 by Tigeraholic1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted February 10, 2022 Share Posted February 10, 2022 8 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said: My nephew is an Airborne Ranger was just emergency deployed first Poland but my sister just texted me he landed in Ukraine...... that would be interesting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted February 10, 2022 Share Posted February 10, 2022 3 hours ago, chasfh said: Any idea how the Ukrainian poll about Russia breaks down along age lines? I’d be interested in seeing whether there’s a substantial difference one way or another. It'll break more strongly across regional lines. East of the Dnieper River (mix of ethnic Russians and Ukrainians) will be more closely OK with Russia, West of the Dnieper are ethnic Ukrainians dead-set against Russia... Probably 80-90% against. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted February 10, 2022 Share Posted February 10, 2022 27 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: It'll break more strongly across regional lines. East of the Dnieper River (mix of ethnic Russians and Ukrainians) will be more closely OK with Russia, West of the Dnieper are ethnic Ukrainians dead-set against Russia... Probably 80-90% against. I'm wondering how it breaks along age lines. I'm interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted February 10, 2022 Share Posted February 10, 2022 1 hour ago, Tigeraholic1 said: My nephew is an Airborne Ranger was just emergency deployed first Poland but my sister just texted me he landed in Ukraine...... How would his sister know? Aren't troop movements supposed to be secret? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted February 10, 2022 Share Posted February 10, 2022 4 minutes ago, chasfh said: I'm wondering how it breaks along age lines. I'm interested. Ah.. I think I know what you are getting at... Older gen still nostalgic for Russia and younger gen decidedly against Russia? I think the polls would confirm that but, you're right, would like to see poll stats to see what they say... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted February 10, 2022 Share Posted February 10, 2022 9 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: Ah.. I think I know what you are getting at... Older gen still nostalgic for Russia and younger gen decidedly against Russia? I think the polls would confirm that but, you're right, would like to see poll stats to see what they say... I'm not getting at anything. I'm just asking whether there's an age breakout for the poll. I'm interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigeraholic1 Posted February 10, 2022 Share Posted February 10, 2022 28 minutes ago, chasfh said: How would his sister know? Aren't troop movements supposed to be secret? He has his personal cell phone so I am assuming they are allowed to communicate. We are already on the ground there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted February 10, 2022 Share Posted February 10, 2022 5 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said: He has his personal cell phone so I am assuming they are allowed to communicate. We are already on the ground there. check yourself before you wreck yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted February 10, 2022 Share Posted February 10, 2022 I remember the breathless friends of mine who would ask me if Jade Helm was really the government's preparations for martial law. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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