Detroit Lions Offseason Thread 2023

[Longgone]

1 hour ago, Motown Bombers said:

I mean, the Lions have spent the #2 overall pick on edge and a 2nd round pick. They had James Houston who was one of the best edge rushers when he played. How much do they need to spend on it?

Pay no heed, the whole discussion regarding low value positions is overdone. You don't draft positions, you draft individuals and what they can provide for your club compared to other options.

[RandyMarsh]

ESPN had their rookie projections the other day and they have Gibbs projected to finish 2nd in rushing to Bijan but 1st in total yards at like 1200 and first in total TDs at 9. Also have Campbell finishing first in tackles at nearly 100 beating the next guy by 25. So yeah getting the guy who leads all rookies in all purpose yards and TDs along with the player that finishes with 25% more tackles than any of his peers sounds like a Home Run to me even if they play "less valuable positions". 

[Motown Bombers]

I forget who said it, but they said if Gibbs wore 81 at Alabama instead of 1 people would be praising this pick. 

[RandyMarsh]

It's been said before but the position thing has merit when you are building a team from the bottom but the Lions aren't. THey are set at QB, both Tackles, had the two best rookie pass rushers last year, have a legit number 1 receiver and spent a ton of resources on the secondary in the offseason.

They shored up or are set at all the "important positions" so should they just keep using resources there to draft back ups that won't see the field much just because there is suddenly some rule that it is taboo to draft certain positions early even if there is a need for them?

Also I found it funny that when PFF put out their top 25 players under 25 they had a freaking Center listed 4th overall ahead of stud players at positions like OT, DB and WR. So position value only matters to them in certain situations I guess. 

[Motown Bombers]

10 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

ESPN had their rookie projections the other day and they have Gibbs projected to finish 2nd in rushing to Bijan but 1st in total yards at like 1200 and first in total TDs at 9. Also have Campbell finishing first in tackles at nearly 100 beating the next guy by 25. So yeah getting the guy who leads all rookies in all purpose yards and TDs along with the player that finishes with 25% more tackles than any of his peers sounds like a Home Run to me even if they play "less valuable positions". 

If a rookie WR put up 1,200 yards and 9 TDs, you would take that all day from your 12th pick. St Brown didn't even put up those numbers. When it's a RB, it means less. 

[Motown Bombers]

The Lions secondary on paper looks to be pretty good. No one was drafted higher than the 3rd round except for Brian Branch. So much for positional value. 

[buddha]

i think positional value is real and the lions invested a lot of money and high picks in lower value positions.  but i think barnwell is wrong.  he doesnt really know the lions and only has a cursory knowledge of their players.  they have more talent at edge than he gives them credit for, and gibbs is a multifacted offensive player who can play as much receiver as running back.

as for the linebacker and db issue, he does have a point on the lions spending a ton of money and capital on anzalone and campbell, but he seems to fall into the trap of assuming draft picks are made to play next year.  campbell will eventually replace anzalone and should be an upgrade on rodriguez.  his point on the deals cjgj and mosely signed seems to be grasping at straws (that they werent as values around the league seeing as how their contracts were so low).

[Motown Bombers]

The Lions pass rush was not bad last year. Their pressure rate was 9th in the NFL and they ranked 18th in sacks. They could have done a better job at getting home on the pass rush but their rush defense and pass defense were both bottom 5. Certainly a better pass rush can solve the pass defense, but they addressed the biggest needs of the team. 

[NYLion]

2 hours ago, buddha said:

barnwell taps the lions with the 5th worst offseason in the nfl.

he says they used their resources poorly and prioritized low value positions like rb, safety, and off ball linebackers.  this was the offseason to improve at more valuable positions like edge and they didnt do it.

Dumb take. The Lions have the two best rookie edge rushers last season, Harris, the Okwaras and you could even consider Paschal somewhat of an edge. Spoken like a guy who has no clue about the Lions roster.

It could be argued that defensive tackle should have been prioritized more but, other than that, the Lions addressed every position of need this offseason.

Edited May 25, 2023 by NYLion

[djhutch]

8 minutes ago, buddha said:

i think positional value is real and the lions invested a lot of money and high picks in lower value positions.  but i think barnwell is wrong.  he doesnt really know the lions and only has a cursory knowledge of their players.  they have more talent at edge than he gives them credit for, and gibbs is a multifacted offensive player who can play as much receiver as running back.

as for the linebacker and db issue, he does have a point on the lions spending a ton of money and capital on anzalone and campbell, but he seems to fall into the trap of assuming draft picks are made to play next year.  campbell will eventually replace anzalone and should be an upgrade on rodriguez.  his point on the deals cjgj and mosely signed seems to be grasping at straws (that they werent as values around the league seeing as how their contracts were so low).

I don't think it has to be all one way or the other.  Positional value is not all everything & it's not irrelevant either.  It matters.  It's something to consider, however if it becomes the only consideration, or even THE most important consideration when drafting players, you will find your organization in trouble.

[Motown Bombers]

I just don't get how a player who touches the ball more times than anyone except the QB and accounts for more yards than anyone else is low value. 

[djhutch]

16 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

I just don't get how a player who touches the ball more times than anyone except the QB and accounts for more yards than anyone else is low value. 

Well, the argument is RB is low value in terms of length of service - not impact.  Do I spend that much on a position with such a low average length of career.  I just think RB gets the lion's share of the grief when it comes to that, but none of the positions have LONG careers.  Get the best players & generally speaking you'll be better off.

[Motown Bombers]

3 minutes ago, djhutch said:

Well, the argument is RB is low value in terms of length of service - not impact.  Do I spend that much on a position with such a low average length of career.  I just think RB gets the lion's share of the grief when it comes to that, but none of the positions have LONG careers.  Get the best players & generally speaking you'll be better off.

Yeah I know that's the argument. When you look at the 2019 draft, only 11 players had their 5th year option picked up and a 12th, Jordan Love, signed an extension for less than the 5th year option. Less than half of the players taken project to be with the team after 5 years. If Gibbs can play at a high level for 5 years, this team will likely look a lot different by then. It's probably 50/50 Goff isn't even here in 5 years. 

[buddha]

because you can get really good production from average running backs.  their production is more oline dependent.  look at saquon barkley, supremely talented but is not the offensive game changer people thought he would be and probably has not justified the #2 draft position.

again, gibbs is (hopefully) a different animal.  hopefully he gives us what swift only gave us in fits and starts because he was never healthy.  that is a pass catching back AND someone who can run between the tackles.  that player is valuable no matter the shelf life.

as for this year's draft, the only offensive player i would have taken at that point in the draft over gibbs (12th) was JSN.  you can make an argument for either one.

[MichiganCardinal]

 

[Motown Bombers]

37 minutes ago, buddha said:

because you can get really good production from average running backs.  their production is more oline dependent.  look at saquon barkley, supremely talented but is not the offensive game changer people thought he would be and probably has not justified the #2 draft position.

again, gibbs is (hopefully) a different animal.  hopefully he gives us what swift only gave us in fits and starts because he was never healthy.  that is a pass catching back AND someone who can run between the tackles.  that player is valuable no matter the shelf life.

as for this year's draft, the only offensive player i would have taken at that point in the draft over gibbs (12th) was JSN.  you can make an argument for either one.

Of the top 10 picks in the 2018 draft, Barkley is one of only 3 players still on the team that drafted them. The other being Josh Allen and low positional value Quentin Nelson. Except for Josh Allen, no one in the top 10 of that draft was an offensive game changer (or defensive for that matter). I would also add Barkley was a big reason the Giants made the playoffs this year. 

Edited May 25, 2023 by Motown Bombers

[MichiganCardinal]

 

[Motown Bombers]

I was surprised when they let Patterson go. 

[MichiganCardinal]

A conditional 2026 7th 😂

[Motown Bombers]

1 minute ago, MichiganCardinal said:

A conditional 2026 7th 😂

It makes sense. Jacksonville signed McManus and was going to waive Patterson. The Lions are 18th on the waiver order so this allows them to ensure they get him and give Jacksonville something instead of nothing. 

[MichiganCardinal]

Just now, Motown Bombers said:

It makes sense. Jacksonville signed McManus and was going to waive Patterson. The Lions are 18th on the waiver order so this allows them to ensure they get him and give Jacksonville something instead of nothing. 

I just wonder what kind of conditions are attached to a pick in the 200s three years from now. That’s virtually nothing to give up.

[Longgone]

1 hour ago, MichiganCardinal said:

I just wonder what kind of conditions are attached to a pick in the 200s three years from now. That’s virtually nothing to give up.

That he makes the team for x amount of time.

[Jimbo]

Good to see Jamison answering questions.  A little annoyed he didn't understand the rule.  Especially for a young player under his first contract.  Its a mistake but its not like he was at a strip bar with a gun or left a scene of an accident after someone died.  Love to see someone like Calvin giving him advice. 

As far as the Gibbs and Campbell picks.  Its ok to disagree with draft picks although I feel guys like Barnell are looking for views/clicks and don't actually know each teams.  I feel like the Lions are in win now mode.  I understand the reasoning for not picking LBs and RBs early although I think the Lions are actually in a unique situation.  They are young and actually don't have any long term bad contracts (as of now).   If you can draft two players that can make your team better and feel like the picks make your team better short term than other picks than I think you have to make those picks.  Because the Lions (as of now) don't have a Mahomes, Manning, or Brady I feel like you have to strike now and go for a super bowl in the next three years because of your unique situation.  Time will tell.

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, Jimbo said:

I understand the reasoning for not picking LBs and RBs early

The other factor is that positional value ratings are something that emerge from a league averaging exersize. I'm willing to wait and and see what an apparently above average IQ coach does to maximize the value of a couple of guys the org thinks have the potential to have more impact on the field than the *average* guy that plays their position. 

Edited May 26, 2023 by gehringer_2

[Motown Bombers]