10/01/2023 3:10 pm EDT Cleveland Guardians vs Detroit Tigers

[buddha]

14 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

I would not have put him ahead of Gehringer and Kaline.  Maybe 4th.  

4th would be a real stretch.  7th is better.  maybe higher than heilmann?

[Tiger337]

Just now, buddha said:

4th would be a real stretch.  7th is better.  maybe higher than heilmann?

7th seems about right.  He and Heilmann are close, but Heilmann had a damn good peak and more good years than Cabrera.  The other wildcard is Verlander.  It's hard to compare pitchers and hitters, but they both peaked at the same time and I think Verlander had a slightly bigger impact most years.  

[romad1]

Miggy wasn't bad at 3B and 1B.  E.g., He made the play to end the Gallaraga perfect game.

Edited October 2, 2023 by romad1

[chasfh]

15 hours ago, Motor City Sonics said:

Tork didn't make it to 100 RBI today.    He sucks. 

He did make it to 31 homers, though.

[gehringer_2]

4 minutes ago, chasfh said:

He did make it to 31 homers, though.

The Tigers scored 661 runs, Tork scored or drove in 151 of them (and that's with the double count for HRs removed), 23% of the total.

[RandyMarsh]

3 hours ago, romad1 said:

Miggy wasn't bad at 3B and 1B.  E.g., He made the play to end the Gallaraga perfect game.

I seem to recall Miggy being told he was actually ranging too far to his right on some balls and instead should just go to the bag and let the 2b make the play.

[chasfh]

3 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

I seem to recall Miggy being told he was actually ranging too far to his right on some balls and instead should just go to the bag and let the 2b make the play.

Maybe the guy who told him that was Armando Galarraga ... 😉

[gehringer_2]

9 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

I seem to recall Miggy being told he was actually ranging too far to his right on some balls and instead should just go to the bag and let the 2b make the play.

I've also thought that if early on the Tigers had told Cabrera he was staying at 3b he might have stayed in better physical condition and in turn had more productive years, but who knows?

[Jim Cowan]

He wasn't "terrible" by any stretch of the imagination.  If you hit it right to him at third base he made all the plays, and he had a cannon.

[Toddwert]

I think Cabrera's problem is he played some many years thru injuries that it came back to bite him when he got older... im not going to bash  a guy that does that to get us into playoffs

[Tiger337]

28 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

I seem to recall Miggy being told he was actually ranging too far to his right on some balls and instead should just go to the bag and let the 2b make the play.

That is what I recall as well.  That was the second baseman's play. 

Cabrera was below average at both first and third.  He was an elite hitter and all his value came from that.  

Edited October 2, 2023 by Tiger337

[Tenacious D]

41 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

I've also thought that if early on the Tigers had told Cabrera he was staying at 3b he might have stayed in better physical condition and in turn had more productive years, but who knows?

His injuries weren’t related to his conditioning, though.  There was the core injury (allegedly separating Prince and Avisail Garcia), and then some knee issues, where it was revealed a few years ago that they were irreparable and he would have to finish his career without being able to use his legs to drive the ball.

[Edman85]

Bad knees aren't a result of poor conditioning?

[Tenacious D]

I though they were injuries that occurred while playing, not because he was fat.  But my memory is faulty, so you win.

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, Tenacious D said:

I though they were injuries that occurred while playing, not because he was fat.  But my memory is faulty, so you win.

its all speculation but you can't separate carrying the extra weight and better flexibility conditioning from the risk of injury in all activities, especially the extra weight. Most forces your knees/ankes experience are proportional to your body weight.

[SoCalTiger]

12 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

Now that Cabrera is done, where does he fit among Tigers all-time?  It's a bit of a challenge because his peak years were so good, but he had so many down years at the end. Giving value to both peak and longevity, here is a quick list:

1. Cobb

2. Kaline

3. Gehringer

4. Greenberg

5. Verlander

6. Heilmann

7. Cabrera

8. Whitaker

9. Trammell

10. Crawford.  

Third for me after Cobb and Greenberg but can’t argue with Fourth after Gehringer. 

[casimir]

The Tigers (and Guardians & MLB) handled things pretty well this weekend.  I thought having Cabrera's kids involved in his first plate appearance on Sunday and pulling him from the game were nice touches.  It seemed the "huggy line" was a bit overblown, but whatever.

It does seem odd to me that he wouldn't have had a fielding glove with him at all this season.  I realize he was a DH only, but I figured he's have had one just to kick around and play catch every once in a while.

[casimir]

3 hours ago, Jim Cowan said:

He wasn't "terrible" by any stretch of the imagination.  If you hit it right to him at third base he made all the plays, and he had a cannon.

I guess it depends upon how much weight one gives to range.  You're right, he caught whatever was hit to him and he had a strong & accurate arm.  But range wasn't a strength for him.

[gehringer_2]

39 minutes ago, casimir said:

The Tigers (and Guardians & MLB) handled things pretty well this weekend.  I thought having Cabrera's kids involved in his first plate appearance on Sunday and pulling him from the game were nice touches.  It seemed the "huggy line" was a bit overblown, but whatever.

It does seem odd to me that he wouldn't have had a fielding glove with him at all this season.  I realize he was a DH only, but I figured he's have had one just to kick around and play catch every once in a while.

Yeah, hard to believe Cabrera didn't have a glove just for playing catch and warming up. I'd guess more likely Miguel appreciated the symmetry of using Torkelson's glove at his 'end' after giving Tork his at his 'beginning'

[Toddwert]

14 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Yeah, hard to believe Cabrera didn't have a glove just for playing catch and warming up. I'd guess more likely Miguel appreciated the symmetry of using Torkelson's glove at his 'end' after giving Tork his at his 'beginning'

he claimed he threw them out... i dont know if it was a pouting thing

[Tiger337]

1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said:

its all speculation but you can't separate carrying the extra weight and better flexibility conditioning from the risk of injury in all activities, especially the extra weight. Most forces your knees/ankes experience are proportional to your body weight.

Bigger players tend not to age well.  I can't say with any certainty that his late career injuries were due to extra weight, but there is a correlation between body mass and propensity to injury especially as you get older.  

[oblong]

29 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Yeah, hard to believe Cabrera didn't have a glove just for playing catch and warming up. I'd guess more likely Miguel appreciated the symmetry of using Torkelson's glove at his 'end' after giving Tork his at his 'beginning'

Maybe he just a regular glove.  Then again, maybe he was under orders to not play catch, even a little bit, lest he pull something.

 

[gehringer_2]

10 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

Bigger players tend not to age well.  I can't say with any certainty that his late career injuries were due to extra weight, but there is a correlation between body mass and propensity to injury especially as you get older.  

There are enough exceptions to the general trend though - so what can you do as a GM? If you passed on a chance at Dave Winfield or Frank Thomas you'd have looked pretty dumb!

[Tiger337]

1 hour ago, SoCalTiger said:

Third for me after Cobb and Greenberg but can’t argue with Fourth after Gehringer. 

I find it interesting that some people are so easily rating Cabrera over Kaline.   Kaline has always been regarded as a god in Detroit and I grew up thinking that his numbers didn't match his status.  So, I kind of get it.  In later years, I came to the conclusion that he really was a great all around player who lasted a long time and worthy of much of the adoration.  Cabrera was a better hitter than Kaline, but not THAT much better whe you consider the eras in which they played and Kaline was a far better defender and had more good years in Detroit.,  

[Tiger337]

9 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

There are enough exceptions to the general trend though - so what can you do as a GM? If you passed on a chance at Dave Winfield or Frank Thomas you'd have looked pretty dumb!

There are exceptions to every trend! Winfield was a freak though - very big but also gifted athletically.  Frank Thomas certainly fits the big guy lasting a long time profile.  Both of those guys played in the steroid era too, so who knows?