The Tigers have fired Al Avila

[sabretooth]

I came to MTS in 2005 and used my early days to promote the cause of Marcus Thames 😀

I never saw 2006 coming, and sharing that experience along with the ensuing good years was really great.

The Avila years were very difficult for me to enjoy, especially with the horrifying Brad A, and Gardenfire, and the new "yay losing is how you win!!!" silliness from a handful of MTS guys.

I was very happy to see them surge last year, and expected them to be respectable this year.  After this years debacle, I hope that Chris gets lucky with picking a good GM and we get lucky with a decent/winning team in the next few years.

[casimir]

4 hours ago, mtutiger said:

https://theathletic.com/3498300/2022/08/12/tigers-next-gm-search-opening/?source=emp_shared_article

Behind the paywall, but Cody largely nails it in terms of the desirability of this job.

Among other things, he makes the point that has flown under the radar: the AL Central. Whoever gets this job isn't Mike Elias, rebuilding only to be thrown into the frying pan competing with Toronto and Tampa for a WC spot.... there should be more runway to win a division than a team like Baltimore has.

Until divisions get reracked, you are correct.  I suspect that could be the same if MLB realigns before expanding.  Detroit would likely be a swing team with no real rivalry (like putting the New Yorks together in the same division), but even then, they’re probably going to be added in with similar rust belt and/or middle markets.

[casimir]

2 hours ago, Biff Mayhem said:

Nobody gets you here either.

I thought we weren’t s’posed to mention that?  I thought this was discussed at the Liston Rule V party?

[casimir]

1 hour ago, HeyAbbott said:

Absolutely agree. If I were the GM, my first order of  business would be to get Miggy retired.

I wouldn’t go at him for immediate retirement.  But as if he now, if he isn’t available to play on a daily basis he need to go to the IL.

Now, longer term, there needs to be a discussion about being in shape and ready to go for next season.  At Cabrera’s age, sure, there’s going to be more aches and pains.  But I don’t think Cabrera is doing himself (or his team) any favors with his conditioning.

[casimir]

58 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

There's a chance that whoever comes in will have to accomodate him or will decide it can work within whatever plan they have. But I really dislike the idea that whatever moves they want to make in the offseason (of which there could be many) are going to be impacted to accommodate a player that is at the stage that Cabrera is at at this point. Whoever is hired is going to be hired with the idea of evaluating the product on the field and should have full latitude to do what they want in order to do improve the product. 

Purely hypothetical here, but if the next person comes in and wants to approach this roster through improvement of the position player core and sees upgrading outfield pieces in free agency as a path they want to pursue, and knowing that Austin Meadows has the deficiencies that he has defensively, it's easy to see how Cabrera can become an obstacle, for instance

On the flip side, because of Meadows’ fielding deficiencies, isn’t he a bit of an obstacle as well?  Ideally, this team should have as many two way performers as possible in the daily lineup.

[Tigerbomb13]

Since everyone is sharing their joining Motownsports story- I joined in 2005, in my mid-20s. This is when I was first following prospects and I think I was googling info on players. I thought having an upcoming infield of Kody Kirkland, Tony Giarratano, Ryan Raburn, and Juan Tejeda was going to bring us back!

Edited August 12, 2022 by Tigerbomb13

[mtutiger]

14 minutes ago, casimir said:

On the flip side, because of Meadows’ fielding deficiencies, isn’t he a bit of an obstacle as well?  Ideally, this team should have as many two way performers as possible in the daily lineup.

Sure, but assuming he's healthy, Meadows also is at least capable of a 2 WAR season at this point of his career. 

Can't really say the same for Miguel at this point.

Edited August 12, 2022 by mtutiger

[Tiger337]

I first came here in 2002 when the AOL board began to deteriorate.  I liked that there was a group here that was really into sabermetrics and prospects which wasn't very common at the time.  I invited some AOL people over here and one of them said he didn't like it because posters knew TOO much about the Tigers and he felt he couldn't contribute anything!  looking back, we really didn't know anything!  The only problem was there was some weird contest going on (some kind of promotional thing I think) that had nothing to do with the Tigers or baseball and half the posts were about that.  I can't remember what it was, but MWG cleaned that up pretty fast.   

[casimir]

28 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Sure, but assuming he's healthy, Meadows also is at least capable of a 2 WAR season at this point of his career. 

Can't really say the same for Miguel at this point.

Valid point, sir.

[CMRivdogs]

6 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

The only problem was there was some weird contest going on (some kind of promotional thing I think) that had nothing to do with the Tigers or baseball and half the posts were about that.  I can't remember what it was, but MWG cleaned that up pretty fast.   

It was a word of the day promotion by the flagship station. It was supposed to drive listenership to other day parts. A bunch of members used the forums in an attempt to circumvent the rules, so to speak. It basically go out of hand thanks to ever present prize pigs.

[buddha]

i take it back, you guys are really old.

[casimir]

8 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

I first came here in 2002 when the AOL board began to deteriorate.  I liked that there was a group here that was really into sabermetrics and prospects which wasn't very common at the time.  I invited some AOL people over here and one of them said he didn't like it because posters knew TOO much about the Tigers and he felt he couldn't contribute anything!  looking back, we really didn't know anything!  The only problem was there was some weird contest going on (some kind of promotional thing I think) that had nothing to do with the Tigers or baseball and half the posts were about that.  I can't remember what it was, but MWG cleaned that up pretty fast.   

I was in there for a short bit before you left.  Wasn’t CJ Nitkowski in there a few times, too?  I remember Baseball Weekly had an article about the internet and baseball merging more and Nitkowski was one of the players known to interact with fans over the interwebs.  Look at where things are now with Twitter and the like.  Crazy how it’s evolved.

@RedRamage dragged me over here from some alt sport baseball Detroit Tiger message board around 2003 or 2004.  He’d been talking about this site for quite a while.  There were a few other folks that migrated over from there, fewer still active here now.  So you morans can blame Red.

[casimir]

4 minutes ago, buddha said:

i take it back, us guys are really old.

Fixed it for you.

[buddha]

how dare you.

[Edman85]

5 hours ago, mtutiger said:

https://theathletic.com/3498300/2022/08/12/tigers-next-gm-search-opening/?source=emp_shared_article

Behind the paywall, but Cody largely nails it in terms of the desirability of this job.

Among other things, he makes the point that has flown under the radar: the AL Central. Whoever gets this job isn't Mike Elias, rebuilding only to be thrown into the frying pan competing with Toronto and Tampa for a WC spot.... there should be more runway to win a division than a team like Baltimore has.

There's three wild cards per league now, and the schedule is going from 18-19 against each team in your division to 13. I'm not sure being in the "easy" division is going to be much of an advantage going forward.

[Tigerbomb13]

30 minutes ago, casimir said:

I was in there for a short bit before you left.  Wasn’t CJ Nitkowski in there a few times, too?  I remember Baseball Weekly had an article about the internet and baseball merging more and Nitkowski was one of the players known to interact with fans over the interwebs.  Look at where things are now with Twitter and the like.  Crazy how it’s evolved.

@RedRamage dragged me over here from some alt sport baseball Detroit Tiger message board around 2003 or 2004.  He’d been talking about this site for quite a while.  There were a few other folks that migrated over from there, fewer still active here now.  So you morans can blame Red.

Anyone remember when Casper Wells’ dad threatened members of the board? Good times. 

[Tenacious D]

5 minutes ago, Tigerbomb13 said:

Anyone remember when Casper Wells’ dad threatened members of the board? Good times. 

Bobby Higginson's dad used to raise hell at the old Freep board.

[Edman85]

What's weird to me is how tough it is to clean house in front offices these days. As they have grown from mom+pop organizations to 100-person operations on the baseball ops side, a new person coming aboard isn't going to be able to make too many sweeping changes. One of the reasons I was indifferent on firing Avila is I'm not sure this is something that can just be quickly u-turned. If a new manager takes over an Engineering Firm, it isn't like everybody on staff gets whacked right away. It's gradual, if at all.

Beyond that, the new person (or people? Maybe they go with President of Ops as well as a GM), likely waits a year to make sweeping front office changes if at all. If anything, it will likely be gradual like they were under Avila the last few years. Likely the people they want to hire for the first year may not be available until year 2 or 3.

Edited August 12, 2022 by Edman85

[Tenacious D]

11 minutes ago, Edman85 said:

What's weird to me is how tough it is to clean house in front offices these days. As they have grown from mom+pop organizations to 100-person operations on the baseball ops side, a new person coming aboard isn't going to be able to make too many sweeping changes. One of the reasons I was indifferent on firing Avila is I'm not sure this is something that can just be quickly u-turned.

Also, with Hinch part of the selection process, the GM likely won’t be making any managerial changes right away.

[Jim Cowan]

Hinch is part of the selection process?

[Edman85]

From the media guide,

Here's the Top Level of the Front Office as of the beginning of this season.

Job duties from the blurbs in the guide:

Chadd:

• Assists Al Avila with organizational priorities and long-term planning, including scouting and advising on top prospects in the amateur draft.

Menzin

• Reporting directly to the Executive Vice President of Baseball Operations and General Manager, he assists with leading the organization’s day-to-day Major League operations, including player procurement, contract negotiations, roster construction, salary arbitration, payroll projections, and compliance with MLB rules and the CBA.

• Oversees the Major League Clubhouse, Athletic Training, Strength and Conditioning, and Nutrition departments.

• Assists the VP, Player Personnel regarding all aspects of the Pro Scouting department.

• Advises Player Development on philosophy, direction, best practices, and staffing.

Sartori

• Reporting to the Executive Vice President of Baseball Operations and General Manager, Sartori oversees the club’s baseball analytics, research & development, performance science, advance scouting, data operations, and software engineering teams.

• Contributes to all aspects of Baseball Operations, including player personnel decisions, roster management, strategy analysis, contract negotiations, and rules and administration.

• Leads the club’s innovation efforts in all areas of Baseball Operations, including scouting, player development and the Major League team.

Bream

. • Leads the club’s professional scouting department and is active in scouting at the Major League level for the Tigers…is directly involved in special assignments for the organization.

Garko

Garko leads all day-to-day operations and long-term planning of the club's player development system

Alan Avila

• Avila provides legal support and service to all departments within the Tigers organization...additionally, he assists the SVP, General Counsel with all legal and compliance matters associated with IS+E and its affiliated companies.

• Responsibilities with the Tigers include reviewing, drafting, managing, and enforcing the Tigers business contracts and operational agreements; assisting with negotiations, salary arbitration and grievances; ensuring compliance with applicable law and MLB rules and regulations.

Georgia Giblin

• Dr. Giblin leads the Performance Science department, which focuses on building and implementing a sustainable system to assist players with performing at their maximum capacity and remaining healthy using traditional baseball methods supported by data-based analysis and advanced technology.

Jim Logue

• Leads a team of analysts and manages the development of predictive models and analytical tools that are used to support every aspect of Baseball Operations.

• Research and Development serves as a resource for all aspects of the club's Baseball Operations, including professional and amateur scouting, player development, advance scouting, and the front office.

Josh Kragness

• Joined the organization as a senior software engineer in May, 2018, and now leads a team of four software engineers.

• Baseball Software Engineering continually improves and maintains the club's internal software applications, which are used to support analysis and decision-making throughout baseball operations.

Josh Smith

• Entering his first season with the Tigers, Josh oversees the team that is responsible for data architecture and operations.

Dan Lunetta

• Based out of Lakeland, FL, Lunetta oversees the day-to-day player development business/administrative operations of the Minor League system, which includes the club's six Minor League affiliates in the United States and two in the Dominican Republic.

• Responsible for maintaining the player development system's compliance with Major League rules, and also oversees the Tigers entire baseball operations budget.

• Supervises the Florida baseball operations at TigerTown, including Spring Training, extended Spring Training, Gulf Coast League and Florida Instructional League, while he also served as the baseball operations point person for the Tigers renovation project at TigerTown in Lakeland.

Scott Pleis

oversees the club's amateur scouting department and leads the organization's efforts in the MLB Draft.

Tom Moore

• Oversees all aspects of the Tigers international operations, which includes managing both operations and signing bonus budgets as well as the international amateur and professional scouting efforts in Latin/South America, Asia, Australia and Europe. Collaborates on decisions relating to the Dominican Academy, including player and staff decisions, operations and facility improvement projects.

Miguel Garcia

• Garcia is responsible for all aspects of the club’s baseball operations efforts in Venezuela and also responsible for the supervision of scouting efforts in Latin America and other special assignments.

Kenny Graham

Entering his third season with the Tigers, Graham serves as the Director of Player Development. His major focus is on hitting development and strategies, establishing an organization-wide hitting protocol with a focus on utilizing data and technology to aid growth and performance

Gabe Ribas

Entering his first season with the Tigers, Ribas is responsible for working across all departments within the club's baseball operations to implement a dynamic pitching program spanning the entire player development system

Ryan Sienko

Sienko joins the Tigers as the coaching and field coordinator, where he coordinates the organization's on-field activity and all coaching initiatives.

 

 

 

[SoCalTiger]

18 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

I enjoyed those teams a lot.  It didn't get really ugly until later in the decade.  

Yes they were to the tune of # 2 in wins during the decade.

MLB : Regular season wins in the 1980's

                        World    Yrs in
                       Series     World  Yrs in
     Franchise           Wins    Series  Playoffs    W     L 
New York Yankees            0        1        2     854   708
Detroit Tigers              1        1        2     839   727
Kansas City Royals          1        2        4     826   734
Los Angeles Dodgers         2        2        4     825   741
St. Louis Cardinals         1        3        3     825   734
Boston Red Sox              0        1        2     821   742
Houston Astros              0        0        3     819   750
Toronto Blue Jays           0        0        2     817   746
New York Mets               1        1        2     816   743
Washington Nationals        0        0        1     811   752
Milwaukee Brewers           0        1        2     804   760
Oakland Athletics           1        2        3     803   764
Baltimore Orioles           1        1        1     800   761
Los Angeles Angels          0        0        2     783   783
Philadelphia Phillies       1        2        3     783   780
Cincinnati Reds             0        0        0     781   783
San Francisco Giants        0        1        2     773   795
San Diego Padres            0        1        1     762   805
Chicago White Sox           0        0        1     758   802
Chicago Cubs                0        0        2     735   821
Minnesota Twins             1        1        1     733   833
Pittsburgh Pirates          0        0        0     732   825
Texas Rangers               0        0        0     720   839
Atlanta Braves              0        0        1     712   845
Cleveland Indians           0        0        0     710   849
Seattle Mariners            0        0        0     673   893
    

[sabretooth]

3 hours ago, Edman85 said:

What's weird to me is how tough it is to clean house in front offices these days. As they have grown from mom+pop organizations to 100-person operations on the baseball ops side, a new person coming aboard isn't going to be able to make too many sweeping changes. One of the reasons I was indifferent on firing Avila is I'm not sure this is something that can just be quickly u-turned. If a new manager takes over an Engineering Firm, it isn't like everybody on staff gets whacked right away. It's gradual, if at all.

This occurred to me as well -- it seems to me that any new GM not named Epstein would need time to get his people and systems in place, and even a superstar GM like Theo would likely have a much harder time in today's big/deep organizational structure then the more simplified structures of say, 20 years ago. 

3 hours ago, Edman85 said:

Beyond that, the new person (or people? Maybe they go with President of Ops as well as a GM), likely waits a year to make sweeping front office changes if at all. If anything, it will likely be gradual like they were under Avila the last few years. Likely the people they want to hire for the first year may not be available until year 2 or 3.

This is why the ability to trade and acquire FAs is so important.  The new GM has to be able to do this to re-establish this team's ability to at least play 500 ball within the next couple of years.  This cannot be a 5 year project or people like me will simply never watch again.  I can't take the 3rd 5+ year losing-fest in the last 25 years, it would be like being a Royals fan at some point.

[1984Echoes]

On 8/11/2022 at 4:19 PM, buddha said:

he's under contract for $32 mil next year.  why pay him more?

We have to buy out 2024 for $8 Mill.

He gets $40 Mill, at the very least, one way or another...

[1984Echoes]

On 8/11/2022 at 5:24 PM, buddha said:

1) lions super bowl

2) michigan nat'l champ

3) red wings stanley cup

4) tigers ws

5) pistons champ

 

1) 1957

2) 1997

3) 2008

4) 1984

5) 2004

 

Put a different way:

1) lions super bowl - been too long a'coming. Number one on my list too. The NFL is a really hard league to get there though. At least with this GM/ Coaching regime it feels like we actually have a chance to build up to that... Should be a fun ride over the next 10 years to see where they can take the formerly forlorn for 64 years Detroit Lions.

2 (A-B-C) 3-way tie for me with all these teams as I love my Red Wings-Tigers-Pistons... and they're all in the same boat with a crapload of young talent that needs a crapload of learning curve and whoever knows how that actually works out until you see it. I think these 3 teams will all be fun to watch over the next 10 years... although since the tigers crapped the bed this year they may not be a lot of fun in 2022-23 but... I think they will be fun (maybe in 2023) at least by 2024... we'll see on that... y'all know how I am...

5) michigan nat'l champ - I feel like the way the college game has changed that there's a near-zero chance that UM can ever again get back to be the College (National) Champion again. We'll see... but I don't feel like expending any of my time worrying about this so... not on my radar at all.