The Tigers have fired Al Avila

[KL2]

5 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

Doesn't he have to "sign off" on big trades like this?

Either huge incoming salaries or huge outgoing salaries/ stars"?

Yes but why wouldn't he listen to the man he hired to do it/convince him why. If he overrode everything he might as well make himself gm.

He's now got buyer remorse seeing how it played out. It was the right call at the time, turned put awful and now he can crap on it without a downside.

[oblong]

Worth noting that it’s ticket renewal time. I wouldn’t be shocked if some strong feedback was given by current customers. My “executive” happened to call me today to check in and ask when the next game I would be at.  

[romad1]

9 minutes ago, oblong said:

Worth noting that it’s ticket renewal time. I wouldn’t be shocked if some strong feedback was given by current customers. My “executive” happened to call me today to check in and ask when the next game I would be at.  

That has got to be a huge part of this

[casimir]

1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said:

anyone see any significance to them parting ways with Avila the day Carpenter is finally called up? Suppose there may have been some difference of opinion around that move or a decision on a broader change in philosophy that led to that move that may have crystallized C.I.'s decision to change directions?

Poor kid makes his MLB debut and he’s now an afterthought on the day.

[casimir]

1 hour ago, romad1 said:

This didn't look too good

 

Why say anything about any specific transactions?

”Unfortunately we as an organization are not in the place where we should be.  We appreciate Avila’s efforts and professionalism over the years, but we felt it was time to make a change.  And so we’ve made the decision to start that process now.”

[sabretooth]

2 hours ago, MichiganCardinal said:

The alternative is having Chris Illitch handpick a replacement for Al. I’m not exactly bursting at the seams to see who he has in mind. His qualifications for being owner of the Tigers are being born rich.

The Lions suck and WCF was a dreadful owner, but Sheila chose Holmes and Campbell the right way. By letting smarter people than her complete practically the entire process.

I think you're right about how the Lions handled it, but Sheila had 0 experience as her rationale, whereas Chris has enough experience with the Tigers and Red Wings where he would never think of himself in those terms. 

I don't trust Sheila only because she lacks experience, and the Ford family always seems to mess it up.

I don't trust Chris because of his specific dramatic failures with the Tigers to date over 7 years.

I think Chris is going to have to get himself out of this mess.

[1776]

56 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

Is Chris just throwing Al under the bus or did we wrongly assume all these years that it was Chris that didn't want to pay the salaries which essentially forced Al to trade them away?  

I have always believed, and stated as much, that Al had Chris snowed. Al Fed Illitch the lines he wanted to hear, played him like a fiddle. Case in point: “The rebuild is 100% complete.” I believe Illitch left the business of the Tigers to Avila. Ultimately, you would say the buck stops with Illitch but I believed from the beginning this was Avila’s baby. That Illitch finally saw the light, great. I agree with Chas that the only reason Illitch moved now was because the shit was in the press and on the talk shows, etc. The shit was on his doorstep and he probably realized that his judgement was in question. However it went down, thank you!!!! 
 

[sabretooth]

16 minutes ago, oblong said:

Worth noting that it’s ticket renewal time. I wouldn’t be shocked if some strong feedback was given by current customers. My “executive” happened to call me today to check in and ask when the next game I would be at.  

Yes, glad to believe that Chris is responsive to external pressures related to on field performance. 

I was and remain afraid that he feels that he can succeed at accomplishing his personal goals (low risk profit) regardless of how the team performs or how fans and season ticket holders feel about the team.

[sabretooth]

1 hour ago, romad1 said:

This didn't look too good

 

Holy Cow...dude, they were YOUR TOP ASSETS you idiot!!!!

[sabretooth]

1 hour ago, HeyAbbott said:

Maybe Al wanted to establish his that he was more than DD's errand boy? Did Chris give them a free hand because he had other concerns and he felt the experienced hand could run things? Maybe so.

The only potential positive I could take from this fiasco is that Chris is making a statement that he will never fire-sale his top assets off like that again.

Edited August 10, 2022 by sabretooth

[1776]

4 minutes ago, casimir said:

Why say anything about any specific transactions?

I understand where you’re coming from but…Chris was asked specifically about JV and JD. This organization has been a flaming turd for years now. If Al was responsible for the shit, lay it out there. He’ll, we all knew it. It’s no secret Avila was in way over his head. The fans deserve to get an honest cut from the owner if he’s willing to talk. 
Illitch needs, more than anyone, to learn from this. He doesn’t need to play Steinbrenner but he should have an idea of what really is going on in the organization. 

[KL2]

20 minutes ago, romad1 said:

That has got to be a huge part of this

That would be a poor decesion. You don't make a decision cause 1,000 decided not to renew tickets. You make the best decision for the long term health of your business. 

[1776]

41 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

Doesn't he have to "sign off" on big trades like this?

Either huge incoming salaries or huge outgoing salaries/ stars"?

Most likely, yes. Buy I believe Al fed Chris so much shit he didn’t know the long term results of this. Al probably was telling him trading JV would be the answer to the glory days on the horizon. Al was in over his head. 
The “full bore” line was telling. He knew he was running out of rope.

Edited August 10, 2022 by 1776

[Toddwert]

Chris probably listen and trusted what AL said about Verlander and Martinez trades ... hes not a baseball guy he had no idea who we were trading for. Al is the baseball guy

[sabretooth]

I think the only possible alternative to Theo Epstein would be too to hire a well regarded assistant  From one of the successful organizations like the Rays, the Astros, the Cardinals, or the Dodgers.

Putting aside the Dodgers huge advantage in revenue and payroll, I think it can be safely said that none of these organizations are a one man show.   None of them were built by one man nor sustained by one man.

It also follows that these successful teams took time to build their systems up with the right leadership and team in order to in order to build the right systems that could be perpetuated as the team changed.

The luck needed to pick the right GM, who would start the ball rolling and the time it would take to build the right FO team **and** implement the systems behind it all feels like it would require **another long 3-5+ year wait.**

Sorry, no f'ng thanks.

There are as far as I'm aware only 2 GMs around who have the proven capability to turn a losing franchise around.  The Tigers already fired one of them in 2015.

So in my opinion Chris either puts all of his chips in Theo Epstein, or he rolls the dice again on an unproven commodity, and waits another indeterminate number of years to see if it works.

Theo all the way.  Or bust.

Edited August 10, 2022 by sabretooth

[KL2]

3 minutes ago, 1776 said:

Most likely, yes. Buy I believe Al fed Chris so much shit he didn’t know the long term results of this. Al probably was telling him trading JV would be the answer to the glory days on the horizon. Al was in over his head. 
The “full bore” line was telling. He knew he was running out of rope.

It was the right decision at the time, everybody here agreed. Well like 90 percent. Hell remember when everyone wanted to make him a closer or trade him in 08?

We were heading for a rebuild he was a valuable asset and he had been good to us and we didn't win a WS. Remember he wasn't as valuable at that time as he is today. We had to pay for another team to take him and some teams dropped out because we wouldn't pay enough. The problem was eveyrbody who came back turned out to be a pumpkin. 

That was the right call at the time but seeign nothing come from it sticks you in the mud when you compound with the fact you never found a suprise good player ala Randy A in Tampa, Hector in NYY, JP crawford or players like that. 

[oblong]

4 minutes ago, KL2 said:

That would be a poor decesion. You don't make a decision cause 1,000 decided not to renew tickets. You make the best decision for the long term health of your business. 

Season ticket sales are the life blood of an org.  I’m not saying I am special b/c I only have a 28 game package but I know personally of non renewals covering about 100 tickets between personal friends and companies I am involved with. 5 years ago I had 14 regulars around me.  That’s down to 4.   When I exchange my unused tickets for another game I get my same seats, which means there’s nobody in a Saturday or Sunday package with them. (A lot of seats are split 3 ways). 
 

I am not saying it should be the only reason but all you have to do is look at the record and if the financials are dropping then it’s time to move.  Now Chris has another selling point. 

[1776]

7 minutes ago, Toddwert said:

Chris probably listen and trusted what AL said about Verlander and Martinez trades ... hes not a baseball guy he had no idea who we were trading for. Al is the baseball guy

This is my take on it as well. Chris inherited this team. Mike built what had been a good team. Mike had played for the Tigers in the minors. His blood was in the Tigers’ fortunes, good & bad. I don’t know that Chris, to this day, really cares about the Tigers as most owners might. 

[romad1]

8 minutes ago, oblong said:

Season ticket sales are the life blood of an org.  I’m not saying I am special b/c I only have a 28 game package but I know personally of non renewals covering about 100 tickets between personal friends and companies I am involved with. 5 years ago I had 14 regulars around me.  That’s down to 4.   When I exchange my unused tickets for another game I get my same seats, which means there’s nobody in a Saturday or Sunday package with them. (A lot of seats are split 3 ways). 
 

I am not saying it should be the only reason but all you have to do is look at the record and if the financials are dropping then it’s time to move.  Now Chris has another selling point. 

Its a product.  They know season ticket holders need to be appeased.  Finally they did so. 

[casimir]

15 minutes ago, sabretooth said:

I think the only possible alternative to Theo Epstein would be too to hire a well regarded assistant  From one of the successful organizations like the Rays, the Astros, the Cardinals, or the Dodgers.

Putting aside the Dodgers huge advantage in revenue and payroll, I think it can be safely said that none of these organizations are a one man show.   None of them were built by one man nor sustained by one man.

It also follows that these successful teams took time to build their systems up with the right leadership and team in order to in order to build the right systems that could be perpetuated as the team changed.

The luck needed to pick the right GM, who would start the ball rolling and the time it would take to build the right FO team **and** implement the systems behind it all feels like it would require **another long 3-5+ year wait.**

Sorry, no f'ng thanks.

There are as far as I'm aware only 2 GMs around who have the proven capability to turn a losing franchise around.  The Tigers already fired one of them in 2015.

So in my opinion Chris either puts all of his chips in Theo Epstein, or he rolls the dice again on an unproven commodity, and waits another indeterminate number of years to see if it works.

Theo all the way.  Or bust.

Going out and finding the right one is a bit of an unknown proposition.  At the very least, they’ve finally decided to move on from the wrong one.

[MichiganCardinal]

2 hours ago, Sports_Freak said:

And the jury is still out on the Lions. Just giving them credit for a GM and coach who may win isn't good enough. But their history isn't something to strive for. SOT? 🤣🤣

I never said their history is something to strive for, of course it’s not. I’m just saying that their recent history in the process by which they select a replacement GM is along the lines of what I’d like to see the Tigers do.

It might work it might not. Same with the Lions. I think it’s a better recipe for future success than Illitch selecting whomever he arbitrarily thinks is the best candidate.

[gehringer_2]

the other comment that seems more telling in retrospect is Hinch's "I wasn't in the room when those deals were made"  regarding the deadline trades. Could be knives were out for Al from more than one direction.

And as has made us all wonder, maybe it's now safer to say Hinch and Avila were indeed not on the same page regarding call-ups.

Edited August 11, 2022 by gehringer_2

[Longgone]

24 minutes ago, sabretooth said:

I think the only possible alternative to Theo Epstein would be too to hire a well regarded assistant  From one of the successful organizations like the Rays, the Astros, the Cardinals, or the Dodgers.

Putting aside the Dodgers huge advantage in revenue and payroll, I think it can be safely said that none of these organizations are a one man show.   None of them were built by one man nor sustained by one man.

It also follows that these successful teams took time to build their systems up with the right leadership and team in order to in order to build the right systems that could be perpetuated as the team changed.

The luck needed to pick the right GM, who would start the ball rolling and the time it would take to build the right FO team **and** implement the systems behind it all feels like it would require **another long 3-5+ year wait.**

Sorry, no f'ng thanks.

There are as far as I'm aware only 2 GMs around who have the proven capability to turn a losing franchise around.  The Tigers already fired one of them in 2015.

So in my opinion Chris either puts all of his chips in Theo Epstein, or he rolls the dice again on an unproven commodity, and waits another indeterminate number of years to see if it works.

Theo all the way.  Or bust.

If Epstein was at all interested in being a GM again, he'd already be one. There's a reason he moved on.

[KL2]

18 minutes ago, oblong said:

Season ticket sales are the life blood of an org.  I’m not saying I am special b/c I only have a 28 game package but I know personally of non renewals covering about 100 tickets between personal friends and companies I am involved with. 5 years ago I had 14 regulars around me.  That’s down to 4.   When I exchange my unused tickets for another game I get my same seats, which means there’s nobody in a Saturday or Sunday package with them. (A lot of seats are split 3 ways). 
 

I am not saying it should be the only reason but all you have to do is look at the record and if the financials are dropping then it’s time to move.  Now Chris has another selling point. 

I'm not arguing over the overall idea, Years and years of declining tickets will hurt a bottom line.

But your post and roamd post made it seem like the sales team called 10 people yesterday and 8 said no so Chris came in and was like well time to fire the gm.

I doubt ticket sales next year are much different from last year or the year before. They are dramatically different from years ago when we won 90, but that's true for any org and they will return when we win 90 again. Just like they sprung right up in 06. I doubt any no renewals this year did little to sway chris' mind just like if a bunch renewed I doubt he would have kept al.

I would think Chris has known what he needs to do for a few days now and sales did little to sway given the stands have been empty for 100 games now.

[KL2]

16 minutes ago, romad1 said:

Its a product.  They know season ticket holders need to be appeased.  Finally they did so. 

So the season ticket holders were all cool for the last five years? It was just now they need to be appeased? Come on that is crazy short sighted 

And yes it's a product but you also don't fire your entire leadership team cause sales go down for a month.

Edited August 11, 2022 by KL2