The Tigers have fired Al Avila

[Motor City Sonics]

1 hour ago, MichiganCardinal said:

I’d be fine with that! He might accept such an offer too. I don’t think he’d come close to the job of GM though. If he came back he’d want a checkbook that I don’t think Chris is handing out.

He'd want part ownership like Billy Beane got to stay in Oakland. 

[MichiganCardinal]

1 minute ago, Motor City Sonics said:

He'd want part ownership like Billy Beane got to stay in Oakland. 

Chris will offer him three Hot N Readys and a 2 liter of expired Mug Root Beer, best he can do.

[Mr.TaterSalad]

14 minutes ago, MichiganCardinal said:

Chris will offer him three Hot N Readys and a 2 liter of expired Mug Root Beer, best he can do.

Chris doesn't even have the decency to offer him free parking.

[microline133]

4 hours ago, chasfh said:

Yeah, I don't know that making Menzin permanent would necessarily doom us, but it would be a lot better, I think, to go outside.

BTW, here is the news blurb written about Menzin when he was promoted last year:

Menzin, 31, is responsible for all aspects of MLB operations, including player procurement, contract negotiations, roster construction, salary arbitration, league-wide rules, collective bargaining agreement compliance, professional scouting, advance scouting and video operations.

So, he has already had a head start, but it's fair to wonder whether he is in part responsible for the mess of the last year, or whether he was making recommendations that were being overruled by the old guard still in charge. I have no sense of which might be correct.

There's no wondering, frankly, Menzin had as much responsibility for the current state of the Tigers as Avila. Avila has been the face of the fan's scorn, but Menzin is nearly equally responsible.

[Mr.TaterSalad]

Whose tenure was worse, Avila's or Randy Smith's?

[chasfh]

1 minute ago, microline133 said:

There's no wondering, frankly, Menzin had as much responsibility for the current state of the Tigers as Avila. Avila has been the face of the fan's scorn, but Menzin is nearly equally responsible.

Even if you knew nothing else, just from the description above, you'd have to conclude as much.

[Tiger337]

9 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Whose tenure was worse, Avila's or Randy Smith's?

Randy Smith.  His drafts were terrible and his trades were pointless.  There never seemed to be a plan in place for any length of time.  The drafts under Avila were better and his transactions made sense in terms of correctly identifying weaknesses, but his execution was poor.  

Edited August 11, 2022 by Tiger337

[Mr.TaterSalad]

3 minutes ago, microline133 said:

There's no wondering, frankly, Menzin had as much responsibility for the current state of the Tigers as Avila. Avila has been the face of the fan's scorn, but Menzin is nearly equally responsible.

Which is why it's paramount they bring in outside help and get a GM who doesn't have the Dombrowski/Avila stench on them. Yes, I know that we won with DD here, but our drafting was littered with terrible picks, the farm system was a wreck, and player development was subpar. I never thought I'd say this in my life, but Chris Illitch needs to follow what Sheila Ford-Hamp and the Lions did when they hired Brad Holmes.

If you can open up a blank checkbook and get Theo Epstein in here, which I highly doubt is the case, then fine. Otherwise, an outside firm, agency, person, has to be brought in to assist Chris in this search. If he just takes the next man up approach, as he and his dad did when replacing DD, I think it will be destined to fail. I think they may need to hire both a Team President, who reports to Chris, and then that person, Chris, and someone on the outside find their GM candidate collaboratively. From there, Chris can stay out of the way and let the new Team President and GM spend the next year/two/three to rebuild and revamp the scouting department and player development personnel.

[Mr.TaterSalad]

5 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

Randy Smith.  His drafts were terrible and his trades were pointless.  There never seemed to be a plan in place for any length of time.  The drafts under Avila were better and he identified and addressed weaknesses through free agency, but his execution was poor.  

Avila's trades look pretty damn pointless at times. That Verlander trade was an all time terrible trade. Getting nothing for JD and Nick set us back as well.

[Tiger337]

4 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Avila's trades look pretty damn pointless at times. That Verlander trade was an all time terrible trade. Getting nothing for JD and Nick set us back as well.

The point was to get prospects for guys they weren't going to be able to sign.  The execution was poor.  I wished they had extended both of them, but I don't think Ilitch was going to allow it.  

[1984Echoes]

1 hour ago, buddha said:

wait a second, arent you angry that the guy who built this AMAZING farm system full of future lou whitakers, alan trammells and jack morris just got fired?  you've been telling all of us for the past two weeks how wrong we are and that the tigers system is awesome and full of future stars, and the guy who built it is fired.

arent you pissed?  😉

 

1) No. I was sort of expecting something to happen since... where there's smoke there is often... fired. But even so... I was thinking he was going to get kicked upstairs instead of tossed into the street. I'll state how I feel about that in point #3...

2) Wouldn't it be really, really, REALLY....

 

... Ironic...

 

If the 2025 Tigers turns out pretty damn close to what I had posted? That we actually have the Lou Whitaker (never said Trammell... not even a Bubba...), Lance Parrish, etc... types in our system so that the 2025 roster will be 95% homegrown from all of Al's draft picks the past 5 years or so... and the team is actually ALSO playoff/ championship contender quality?

 

3) I sort of want to see that. And if anything, feel bad for Al. Especially if my 2nd point comes true and and the next GM benefits from everything that Avila put into place. Including the analytics, data systems, draft picks, scouting and development team changes, etc... I think he probably verbally raised expectations with Chris and when everything crapped out he had basically already shot himself in the foot. I think I would have preferred he be kicked upstairs because if he really has put everything in place... he'll end up getting zero credit, even if a competitive 2024-2028-ish team is 95% built by Al's draftees. I know how people are.

But am I pissed? Nah... I have no control over this so I'm not going to sweat it. I just hope whoever comes in can get this team back into contention. With or without all of Al's "beautiful 1984-ish" draftee picks.

[gehringer_2]

7 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

The point was to get prospects for guys they weren't going to be able to sign.  The execution was poor.  I wished they had extended both of them, but I don't think Ilitch was going to allow it.  

yeah - too bad JVs watch wasn't a few minutes slow.

[gehringer_2]

2 hours ago, Motor City Sonics said:

Chris Illitch did not inspire confidence at the Press Conference.

He seems to be a little thin skinned, but OTOH given who he is, he's still not a guy who likes to spend a lot of time in the public eye. Maybe he's never had to work on his personal PR skills much. 

I also wonder if he overestimated the patience of the fan base  - maybe he talked himself into believing this fan base was so great we would never turn on him only to end a bit up out of his reckoning as he found out our patience is no better than any other fan base.

Edited August 11, 2022 by gehringer_2

[Motor City Sonics]

53 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

Randy Smith.  His drafts were terrible and his trades were pointless.  There never seemed to be a plan in place for any length of time.  The drafts under Avila were better and his transactions made sense in terms of correctly identifying weaknesses, but his execution was poor.  

Randy Smith was worse.  At least Al was there when the team got Miguel.  At least he signed J.D. Martinez.   I really can't think of anything good Randy Smith did.   As bad as Al's drafts have been, they are far better than Randy's.      When I think of Randy I think of two things..............he only seemed to deal with the two teams he had connections with, the Padres and Astros and I'll never forget the ridiculous amount of praise for Craig Paquette.    He really tried to sell us that Craig was some kind of difference maker.   yeah, he was a difference maker in blowing Jeff Weaver's no-hitter, but not his fault, it was his 6th career game in RF, so of course it made sense to have him play a new position in a no-hitter.   Man, those years sucked even more than these years.   

Team hasn't drafted well since the late 70's.  I don't think I'm exaggerating there.  

Edited August 11, 2022 by Motor City Sonics

[Longgone]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

Even if you knew nothing else, just from the description above, you'd have to conclude as much.

TBF, he's only had those responsibilities for a short time. Hard to load much blame on him.

[buddha]

58 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

Randy Smith.  His drafts were terrible and his trades were pointless.  There never seemed to be a plan in place for any length of time.  The drafts under Avila were better and his transactions made sense in terms of correctly identifying weaknesses, but his execution was poor.  

jeff weaver?  brandon inge?  cody ross?

rob fick?!?!?!?

[mtutiger]

16 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said:

Randy Smith was worse.  At least Al was there when the team got Miguel.  At least he signed J.D. Martinez.   I really can't think of anything good Randy Smith did.   As bad as Al's drafts have been, they are far better than Randy's.      When I think of Randy I think of two things..............he only seemed to deal with the two teams he had connections with, the Padres and Astros and I'll never forget the ridiculous amount of praise for Craig Paquette.    He really tried to sell us that Craig was some kind of difference maker.   yeah, he was a difference maker in blowing Jeff Weaver's no-hitter, but not his fault, it was his 6th career game in RF, so of course it made sense to have him play a new position in a no-hitter.   Man, those years sucked even more than these years.   

Team hasn't drafted well since the late 70's.  I don't think I'm exaggerating there.  

Craig Paquette... now there was a beauty. Also loved how they were paying millions of dollars to the corpses of Dean Palmer and Bobby Higginson at the end of their contracts. 

That era was so bad, and it was only because Mike I got the next hire right that we kinda forget how bad it was.

[Jim Cowan]

Randy Smith liked Speedy Little Outfielders and drafted them frequently.  He also tucked his shirt into his underpants.

[Scottwood]

If Hinch is going to be heavily involved, then maybe it will be Pete Putila from the Astros.

Edited August 11, 2022 by Scottwood

[Cruzer1]

I'm hoping that whomever takes over has a plan and does it right. I think Chris thought that this would be an easy year, but they have a lot of work to do. They need to blow up the scouting department. Chadd and Pleis must go!

[RandyMarsh]

I think right now my top choice would be Randy Flores scouting director of the Cardinals. 

I like the fact he comes from a winning organization, is a former MLB player with obvious scouting experience but also has a Masters of Science degree and is extremely tech and analytic savvy. 

Of course he doesnt have GM experience and there are certain skills that takes that he hasnt shown yet but from what I read about him and from what I seen of him when he did TV work I think he could handle and hopefully excel at the job. 

[casimir]

51 minutes ago, Cruzer1 said:

I'm hoping that whomever takes over has a plan and does it right.

This is all that matters.  I'm not concerned with whether that person is currently inside the organization or not.  I don't think there should be an attachment to any particular player that makes them unavailable in trade if it makes the organization better.  I don't think there's a quick turnaround likely that we would see a .500 team in a season or two, but then we weren't going to see that if Avila stuck around anyway.

Ideally I'd like a carbon copy of the St. Louis track record of the past 20 some years.  Its been talked about before.  But if you have not looked at their year by year success, it is certainly worth a glance.

They've not always made the playoffs, but they've been at least competitive year in and year out.  Aside from the record, I think the divisions that the Tigers and Cardinals play in are pretty similar enough that using the Cardinals as the barometer makes sense.

As far as the timing is concerned, I think we'd all like to see the new person hired in time to get things moving before the offseason.  I have no idea how quickly things can get turned around as far as a complete overhaul is concerned.  That will probably take some time.  But if they can at least get set a bit for free agency and go from there, that'd at least give the fans a bit of a small victory.  And there are plenty of position holes to fill, probably 3B and OF at the top of the list.

If I were a long tenured member of the front office (including scouting/development departments), I'd have an empty box ready for my personal belongings.

[1776]

8 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

yeah - too bad JVs watch wasn't a few minutes slow.

Very true.

I guess I’ve got it bad-I was thinking about this trade laying in bed this morning. It was a total fiasco. From what I recall Avila was at JV’s house waiting for a response in the final hour of the deadline. JV was really on the fence about leaving Detroit. Finally, at the last hour he reportedly turned to Kate and said, “Screw it, we’re going to Houston.” What a sad tale to tell as a Tiger fan. 

[mtutiger]

11 hours ago, chasfh said:

Everybody says that, but nobody who’s good wants to work for a jackass, so the price goes up. 

There are only 30 of these jobs... only a handful of which are open in any given offseason. Its not even clear there will be more than 1 of the jobs open in this offseason as well.

I suspect there won't be a lack of interest from candidates if they get a call from the Tigers.

[chasfh]

It's a new day ...

And dammit, I have hope now.