Week Eleven: Detroit Lions (3-6) @ New York Giants (7-2)

[RedRamage]

16 hours ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

When the offense was struggling as a unit last year they didn't fire the WR coach or RB coach, they fired the OC Anthony Lynn. Let's be honest, we have struggled at every facet of defense this season outside of Hutch, Rodrigo, and Okudah, not just the secondary.

...

Let's be honest though, they couldn't fire Glenn because if they did, that would be another significant strike on Campbell having to fire both of his coordinators he hired. So even though we struggled as an entire defensive unit, someone had to pay the price and it was Pleasant and not Glenn.

That's a very cynical way to look at it, and it might not be 100% wrong, but I strongly suspect it's also not 100% correct.

The reality is that we'll never know exactly all that goes on behind closed doors.  You're assumption is that AP was let go because they had to fire someone.  But you don't allow that AP was let go perhaps because he wasn't getting the job done with the people he had.  A good evaluation of a coach will obviously include what he has to work with.  Tom Brady's QB coach and Joey Harrington's QB coach might be putting in the same effort and have the same skill and yet still see wildly different results from their QBs.

It is entirely possible, perhaps likely, that AP's group was regressing and/or he wasn't coaching the plays/methods/styles that AG and/or Campbell wanted and that he refused or was incapable for changing after he was told to.  It is entirely possible that AP was let go not because of failings on the field but in compatibility with the rest of the staff.

You mention that AP should get (some) credit for Okudah, and you're probably right.  But should he also not get an equal amount of blame for Oruwariye then?

I personally don't disagree that there was probably some level of public image to the firing of AP.  The Lions has to show that they were trying to improve the defense.  But I also suspect there was more than just picking a name out of a hat of defensive coaches not named AG.  I suspect if that they might have done more of a "quiet firing" like they did with Lynn last year if the defense was doing okay.  I suspect that it's not a questions of AP being a scapegoat or a legit problem but rather AP being a bit of a scapegoat AND a bit of a legit problem.  And the fact that the secondary has seemed to play better since AP's firing lends support to the idea that AP was an issue (admittedly with a small sample size).

[RedRamage]

13 hours ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Was I frustrated last week when it looked like the Bears game was getting out of hand? Hell yes, as most everyone here was. Did I overreact when it looked like the Bears were about to run away with it after going up 24-10. Yeah, maybe. But his team didn't quit and battled back to tie and win it in the end. Props to Campbell for keeping his guys in it.

I've said it before and I'll say it again here: Nothing said/posted during a game should count as being "on the record" for an fan.  We'll all a bit deranged and knee-jerk reacting during games.  I'm sure I'm not the only one who's thought a player should be cut from the team during half time only to see them as potential MVP caliber by the end of the game.

[NYLion]

8 hours ago, buddha said:

over 80% of the teams in the nfc are "in the hunt."

Well, the Lions are usually in the 20% by Thanksgiving so lets give thanks, so to speak, for Lions games to still have "some" meaning this time of year. 

With that said, we'll likely get a dose of reality the next 2 games and be talking draft with a 3-8 Lions team but for now, we're in the hunt baby.

[buddha]

4 minutes ago, NYLion said:

Well, the Lions are usually in the 20% by Thanksgiving so lets give thanks, so to speak, for Lions games to still have "some" meaning this time of year. 

With that said, we'll likely get a dose of reality the next 2 games and be talking draft with a 3-8 Lions team but for now, we're in the hunt baby.

i'm stupidly optimistic that they can beat the giants.

i have much less optimism about the bills. lol.

[RandyMarsh]

3 hours ago, buddha said:

i'm stupidly optimistic that they can beat the giants.

i have much less optimism about the bills. lol.

Yeah Im at the point where I'm going to be slightly disappointed if they lose to the Giants, perhaps Im underrating them but I just don't think they're that good. To me it's a 50/50 game just cause it's on the road 

As for the Bills I'm obviously less optimistic but I think they're beatable IF Josh Allen continues to play a little subpar due to his injury. If he reverts back to his 2021 form then it's going to take a monumental effort and preformance to win. 

[Hongbit]

I’ve come to the point that I expect to see them play 30 minutes of pretty damn good football every week.   If the other 30 goes average to slightly poor, they usually put themselves in a position to make a play to win at the end.    Two weeks in a row now they’ve made that play.  Let hope they keep it going.  

[Jason_R]

8 hours ago, RedRamage said:

It is entirely possible, perhaps likely, that AP's group was regressing and/or he wasn't coaching the plays/methods/styles that AG and/or Campbell wanted and that he refused or was incapable for changing after he was told to.  It is entirely possible that AP was let go not because of failings on the field but in compatibility with the rest of the staff.

Yes, Campbell told the sideline reporter for Fox that the DBs were not being physical enough at the line. Usually coaches are more vague in what they say. Campbell basically came right out and said that either one of his units was not being coached right, or was not following its coaching. I would bet he said it to AP a number of times before as well. 

[Hongbit]

I think it’s really as simple as Glenn, who was fighting for his own job, was a former pro bowl DB and DB coach.   He was an easy replacement for AP to see if they could shake things up and get a better performance from the secondary.   

[MichiganCardinal]

Sometimes I wonder why I was dumb enough to live in Michigan when there are many other states where the air doesn’t hurt my face when I walk outside.

And then I remember that hometown stupidity is relative.

 

[gehringer_2]

12 minutes ago, MichiganCardinal said:

Sometimes I wonder why I was dumb enough to live in Michigan when there are many other states where the air doesn’t hurt my face when I walk outside.

And then I remember that hometown stupidity is relative.

 

This actually looks worse than Feb 4, '77, which was the last time that part of the country got buried. We went through Buffalo to Toronto the day after the snow had stopped that year and it was pretty epic.

[RandyMarsh]

Aside from it getting dark so early I actually like the winter and snow but only to a certain degree. Like getting a few inches here and there is nice imo but dealing with something like that which cripples an entire city is completely different. Outside of a short period in my youth where I lived in Seattle I lived basically my entire life in Michigan so having the 4 seasons is something I'm used to and like.

A few years back I took a leave of absence from work for six months to live with my brother in San Diego just to see how I like it, wanted to test the water to see if I'd want to make the jump to live out there with him and IDK as crazy as it sounds 75 and Sunny everyday got monotonous to me, I'd love to go to a place like that for a month or so in February when I start to get tired of winter but I wouldn't want to live there year round. But that's just me. 

[buddha]

we've found the one person who would rather live in detroit than san diego.

[RandyMarsh]

27 minutes ago, buddha said:

we've found the one person who would rather live in detroit than san diego.

😆 🤣 😂 putting it that way it does sound crazy but yeah not a credit to Detroit more the seasons. Your neck of the woods in Chicago would be great but now that I have a family that doesn't want to leave the area I'm stuck here. 

[MichiganCardinal]

37 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

😆 🤣 😂 putting it that way it does sound crazy but yeah not a credit to Detroit more the seasons. Your neck of the woods in Chicago would be great but now that I have a family that doesn't want to leave the area I'm stuck here. 

You might be a big fan of NorCal… you still get the seasons, just tuned down a bit. And no snow, just rain.

[buddha]

1 hour ago, RandyMarsh said:

😆 🤣 😂 putting it that way it does sound crazy but yeah not a credit to Detroit more the seasons. Your neck of the woods in Chicago would be great but now that I have a family that doesn't want to leave the area I'm stuck here. 

chicago is awesome.  you should move here.

[Mr.TaterSalad]

On 11/18/2022 at 9:24 AM, RedRamage said:

That's a very cynical way to look at it, and it might not be 100% wrong, but I strongly suspect it's also not 100% correct.

The reality is that we'll never know exactly all that goes on behind closed doors.  You're assumption is that AP was let go because they had to fire someone.  But you don't allow that AP was let go perhaps because he wasn't getting the job done with the people he had.  A good evaluation of a coach will obviously include what he has to work with.  Tom Brady's QB coach and Joey Harrington's QB coach might be putting in the same effort and have the same skill and yet still see wildly different results from their QBs.

It is entirely possible, perhaps likely, that AP's group was regressing and/or he wasn't coaching the plays/methods/styles that AG and/or Campbell wanted and that he refused or was incapable for changing after he was told to.  It is entirely possible that AP was let go not because of failings on the field but in compatibility with the rest of the staff.

You mention that AP should get (some) credit for Okudah, and you're probably right.  But should he also not get an equal amount of blame for Oruwariye then?

I personally don't disagree that there was probably some level of public image to the firing of AP.  The Lions has to show that they were trying to improve the defense.  But I also suspect there was more than just picking a name out of a hat of defensive coaches not named AG.  I suspect if that they might have done more of a "quiet firing" like they did with Lynn last year if the defense was doing okay.  I suspect that it's not a questions of AP being a scapegoat or a legit problem but rather AP being a bit of a scapegoat AND a bit of a legit problem.  And the fact that the secondary has seemed to play better since AP's firing lends support to the idea that AP was an issue (admittedly with a small sample size).

I am going to reiterate for anyone that needs to hear it this, but I am not calling for Aaron Glenn or Dan Campbell to be fired. I do not want them to fail to be proven right in some "Oh, they should have hired Brian Daboll or Robert Saleh" moment. I want them to succeed and I want this team to succeed. While I am a very cynical fan, and often look for the negative angle in things, I want this coaching staff and team to succeed. I want to root for consistent, playoff winning football for once in my 35 years on this Earth.

I think you are correct, AP both deserves credit for Jeff Okudah and criticism for Amani Oruwariye. Oruwariye has very clearly regressed this season and that may be on AP, the player himself, or both individuals.

This firing may not have completely been a random name, drawn out of a hat, in order to fire someone for the sake of public accountability being shown by the team. It may well have been due to how poorly our secondary was playing. I do wonder though why Pleasant was chosen over other position coaches and Aaron Glenn.

At the time Pleasant was fired the Lions had a 28.8 percent blitz rate at that point of the season. And yet, were still bottom five in sacks and pressures, in spite of being in a blitz heavy package created by Glenn. Our blitzes were not getting home early on. This went along with an awful run defense that ranked in the bottom 5. We had a run defense that had given up an average of 154.9 yards per game and couldn't stop the run. So why fire AP over D-Line coaches Cameron Davis or Dave Corrao? Our non-Rodrigo Linebackers couldn't and still can't cover in space, get beat over the middle of the field, and don't do well against the run. Alex Anzalone, who continues to start week after week, looks awful on the field. So why fire AP over Linebackers Coach Kelvin Sheppard?

No one sans, Hutch, Rodrigo, Okudah, and an injured Tracy Walker looked all that impressive on our defense. When the offense looked bad as a unit, Lynn paid the price for it, not a position coach. When the defense looked bad as a unit, Pleasant, a position coach, paid the price for it, instead of Aaron Glenn. I just can't help but think that was scapegoating in order to protect Campbell from having to fire yet another coordinator. If the argument is that Aaron Glenn doesn't have the raw talent yet to work with on defense, don't Pleasant and all of the position coaches deserve the same leeway?

[Hongbit]

Again I am of the belief that had Aaron Glenn in his past life been an All-pro LB as well as a highly regarded LB coach then AP is still here coaching DB’s.  Unfortunately for AP, Glenn is an expert on DB’s which led a short leash.  

[Jason_R]

3 hours ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

At the time Pleasant was fired the Lions had a 28.8 percent blitz rate at that point of the season. And yet, were still bottom five in sacks and pressures, in spite of being in a blitz heavy package created by Glenn. Our blitzes were not getting home early on…. So why fire AP over D-Line coaches Cameron Davis or Dave Corrao?

Because WRs were running free in the secondary without being jammed at the line of scrimmage when the head coach and game plan called for it.

It really isn’t complicated.  

[Motor City Sonics]

(telephone ring)

Hey, Danny Boy, it's Brian Daboll...............how are you doing?   

Great, Brian, good to hear from you.

I look forward to Sunday, lets have some fun.       Dan, I wanted to ask you something.

Yeah?

Do you want Golladay back?   I know he never played for you in Detroit, but we don't want him, and he whines about how much better it was there.  

Well, we are hurting at receiver and the rookie won't be ready until the first December game, but I think we'll pass on that. 

We'd keep paying him. 

Nah, that's alright.  Locker room is good here, don't want any shake ups

Alright, I figured I'd give it a shot. 

Cool, man.  I get ya.  See ya Sunday, man

You bet. 

Edited November 20, 2022 by Motor City Sonics

[Motor City Sonics]

On 11/18/2022 at 10:14 PM, buddha said:

we've found the one person who would rather live in detroit than san diego.

the only drawback is never hearing thunder anymore.    It's pretty rare there.    

[KL2]

Im subjecting myself to in person torture at this one. 

[Sports_Freak]

Twitter stupidity is WAY underrated. Someone asked why they can't play in Buffalo but the Lions can still play in N.Y. Get a map....Buffalo is much closer to Detroit than it is to NYC.

[Sports_Freak]

Can the Lions stop the run today?  Chicago ran for over 200 yards.

[holygoat]

38-13 Giants.

[Motown Bombers]

15 hours ago, Jason_R said:

Because WRs were running free in the secondary without being jammed at the line of scrimmage when the head coach and game plan called for it.

It really isn’t complicated.  

Dan Campbell has said as much publicly and the tape backs it up but it doesn't fit conveniently with the narrative.