2024 MLB Thread

[gehringer_2]

5 hours ago, oblong said:

Wouldnt deadening the ball mean…. They admit to making them livelier?  Can they pull a Vince McMahon and admit something they long denied. 

TBF, the specification on the ball was wide enough to begin with that all that had to happen was for the manufacturer get tighter control on the winding and operate at the higher end of the tension range. The spec never had to change, all that had to happen was fewer balls at the soft end and more balls at the hard end of the spectrum.

[Sports_Freak]

10 hours ago, Motor City Sonics said:

The MLBPA is blaming the pitch clock on pitcher injuries, but I seem to recall that a couple of years ago, before the pitch clock, there were still a lot of pitcher injuries.        We know about that around here, don't we?    Remember 2022.  Every one of our Opening Day rotation got hurt.   What did we use, 16 different starters that year?   

Yeah, we went thru the Toledo rotation and part of Erie's, too. 

[Sports_Freak]

Call the proper strike zone, even enlarge it. That would even things out a bit.

[Toddwert]

12 hours ago, chasfh said:

I don't think changing the composition of the ball is necessarily a de facto confession to all prior accusations of doctoring the ball. But they defintiely do admit doing it in 1920 gto make the ball livelier, and I think they could admit it this time as a once-in-a-century sea change, as that was.

The debate is all hypothetical, of course, because ain't no way they're gonna change it. The economic incentives to maintain the status quo of massive homers, wipeout strikeouts, and next-man-up pitching staffs are too compelling to give up.

Im betting its banning the sticky stuff they have to squeeze harder 

[Tiger337]

Justin Verlander gives a great answer to the pitcher injury question here:

 

[1776]

Great interview. I’d consider JV to be an utmost authority in this discussion.

[Motor City Sonics]

1 hour ago, 1776 said:

Great interview. I’d consider JV to be an utmost authority in this discussion.

I think he said that just to piss of Scherzer.     You know those two............

 

 

Anyway,   How about the fact that with travel teams and tournaments that kids are throwing a LOT more than they used to at an early age and they are throwing harder and more breaking pitches before their arms are even fully developed.   

But, as JV says, it's a lot of things. 

Why did the Beatles break up?     100 reasons why.    You can make a case for all of them to be THE reason, but it was the combination.  

 

 

[Sports_Freak]

JV discussing pitcher injuries;

 

 

[Sports_Freak]

Oops...already posted. But good theories. Instead of a dead ball, how about a bigger strike zone?

[gehringer_2]

2 hours ago, Sports_Freak said:

Oops...already posted. But good theories. Instead of a dead ball, how about a bigger strike zone?

do you really want even more K's?

The contradiction is that everyone and his brother wants more balls in play, but pitchers will move heaven and earth to keep balls out of play as long as any large percentage are likely to leave the yard.

I don't think you can square that circle by tinkering with a corner here or there, you need to redraw the figure the way it was originally designed. The balance in the game evolved with a percentage of home runs lower than they are trying to play the game with now.

Edited April 9 by gehringer_2

[oblong]

put some long hair on JV and he's Dave Grohl.

[chasfh]

22 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

Justin Verlander gives a great answer to the pitcher injury question here:

 

It's a good interview and it touches on all the points we've been discussing the last couple of pages.

One thing I do part company with JV on is the idea of merely incentivizing starting pitchers to go deep into games, which is obviously an issue he is close to. Things like tying them to a DH, or shortening bullpens to force managers to keep starters in games longer, which are ideas we have seen discussed by Baseball before, do nothing to alleviate the need for pitchers to throw with max velocity and max spin on every single pitch to avoid contact by hitters.

The only possible type of solution I can imagine is one that mitigates the damage hitters can do on when they put the ball in play, one that reduces the possibility of home runs and allows pitcher to lay up on most hitters and let them put the ball in play without giving up homers left and right. I'll bet you, though, that moving fences back, or pushing plates toward the back wall, will come up as serious options before they ever consider changing the ball.

Edited April 9 by chasfh

[chasfh]

13 hours ago, Sports_Freak said:

Oops...already posted. But good theories. Instead of a dead ball, how about a bigger strike zone?

Like in the 1960s? Pass.

[Sports_Freak]

10 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

do you really want even more K's?

The contradiction is that everyone and his brother wants more balls in play, but pitchers will move heaven and earth to keep balls out of play as long as any large percentage are likely to leave the yard.

I don't think you can square that circle by tinkering with a corner here or there, you need to redraw the figure the way it was originally designed. The balance in the game evolved with a percentage of home runs lower than they are trying to play the game with now.

Very true. Too many players not able to make contact. And too many umpires with different strike zones. Playing with a dead ball may bring back more "small ball" with teams putting more emphasis on making contact and putting the ball in play. It would probably take a generation of players to adjust to it though.

[chasfh]

20 hours ago, Motor City Sonics said:

Anyway,   How about the fact that with travel teams and tournaments that kids are throwing a LOT more than they used to at an early age and they are throwing harder and more breaking pitches before their arms are even fully developed.  

That is the other thing he said that will create a problem even if they do deaden the ball in the majors: kids, meaning travel ball all the way up to college, are incentivized to maximize strikeouts in order to get noticed and drafted, or recruited. So unless use of a deadened ball could be forced on various levels all the way down the line, immediately and without exception—which I don't see as being a practical, workable solution in the short term—young pitchers are always going to throw max/max in order to improve their chances to make life-changing money very young.

This is a quandary that extends far beyond the major leagues itself.

[chasfh]

2 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said:

Very true. Too many players not able to make contact. And too many umpires with different strike zones. Playing with a dead ball may bring back more "small ball" with teams putting more emphasis on making contact and putting the ball in play. It would probably take a generation of players to adjust to it though.

This. It will take a generation of players to adjust to any dramatic change, whatever they land on, if they land on anything.

Always remember, too, the financial incentive Baseball has to maintain Next Man Up.

[1776]

Where is MLB on adopting the ABS? Having seen it in action numerous times now, I’m on board with it. 


 

[oblong]

at the end of the day it's a problem, not to be fixed, but to be dealt with.  How do you adapt?  They've spent their life savings building a house in a hurricane zone and they can't sell it or the land. 

Pitchers will have to balance their drive for success with the "it can't happen to me" attitude.   Teams will learn to measure the risk on certain pitchers and eventually will be more cautious with contracts and then the upcoming pitchers will figure out how they should approach it.  Lay low and stay injury free and be reliable or roll the dice?

 

 

[1776]

9 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Always remember, too, the financial incentive Baseball has to maintain Next Man Up.

True. Any real resolution is going to be competing with the current financial gains these owners are reaping. The integrity of the game is runner up to the money. 
 

[chasfh]

7 hours ago, oblong said:

at the end of the day it's a problem, not to be fixed, but to be dealt with.  How do you adapt?  They've spent their life savings building a house in a hurricane zone and they can't sell it or the land. 

Pitchers will have to balance their drive for success with the "it can't happen to me" attitude.   Teams will learn to measure the risk on certain pitchers and eventually will be more cautious with contracts and then the upcoming pitchers will figure out how they should approach it.  Lay low and stay injury free and be reliable or roll the dice?

 

 

I don’t see any way in which pitchers en masse, outside of maybe an handful of exceptions, lay down their arms and lay up on pitches and allow batters to put balls in play on purpose. I believe they would basically regard it as career suicide to do so, and I think in most cases they would be right. It’s the game that’s creating the incentive to throw max/max on literally every pitch, because getting a chance at a career in the big leagues is based on outstanding performance, meaning, standing out from the crowd. I see no way a pitcher coming up through college or the minors is going to decide to ease up on his pitching to preserve his arm for the sake of his long-term career when he doesn’t even have his career in the first place. If it comes down to laying up to worse results and not making the majors to reduce the possibility of arm injury, versus going max balls out to better results and having a chance to make the show in the first place, I think they’re gonna choose the latter, if not exactly 10 times out of 10, then probably 99 times out of 100.

To paraphrase a now-famous saying, don’t blame the player, blame the game. Therefore, change the game. Just my 2¢, OMMV.

[gehringer_2]

1 minute ago, chasfh said:

I don’t see any way in which pitchers en masse, outside of maybe an handful of exceptions,

correct. The potential payoff for success is too great and every 20 yr old believes it will be the other guy.

[oblong]

I wasn’t suggesting they would do it all at once. It will be a generational or evolutionary situation. How pitchers are evaluated and what teams are willing to pay will dictate how this plays out.  The days of career aces may be over. We will have guys with bursts of a few years then that’s it. Maybe they will get lucky to sneak a good deal in them for themselves. But someone like Skubal or Mize are walking a fine line.  And when they do become FA and are playing well… do they get a big deal?
 

The pitcher not hurt is more valuable on that day than the one who is. 

[SoCalTiger]

No easy answers for sure. The fans love the Home run. It's not going away. So deaden the ball or increase the field is unlikely. Tie the starting pitcher to the DH, Ala Max/JV and the players association/ Hitters will have a cow. If you want to be  a pitcher you have to accept surgery is in your future. Pitcher's are now Gladiators sent out to slaughter ? Extreme ? 

If the game/MLB is causing/ forcing this then maybe the answer is double service time and/ or double pay during TJ recovery ? Pitchers allowed to reach free agency sooner assuming a shorter career ? Does this make sense ? Is it plausible ? Not sure but if the solution has $$$ tied to it then maybe it will get addressed. 

[chasfh]

16 hours ago, oblong said:

I wasn’t suggesting they would do it all at once. It will be a generational or evolutionary situation. How pitchers are evaluated and what teams are willing to pay will dictate how this plays out.  The days of career aces may be over. We will have guys with bursts of a few years then that’s it. Maybe they will get lucky to sneak a good deal in them for themselves. But someone like Skubal or Mize are walking a fine line.  And when they do become FA and are playing well… do they get a big deal?
 

The pitcher not hurt is more valuable on that day than the one who is. 

I agree that most sea changes in the game are generational. After all, when they made the ball live in 1920, only Babe Ruth was taking advantage of it while the rest of the players kept batting like it was still a dead ball. It took a decade or so before more players starting figuring out how they could get 30+ bombs, too. (Answer: swing from your heels and accept the strikeouts.)

What I'm not sure of is whether Baseball and Players will just accept that the game has changed and that pitchers will shred their arms as a matter of course because that's just how it goes now. At least Players won't accept that; Baseball would be just fine with it. But ultimately, I do think Baseball will make, or attempt to make, some adjustment to address it and reduce elbow/shoulder injuries. I also think that, as with the years they spent tinkering around the edges trying to shorten games, they will fail several times until they hit upon the one major change, whatever it might be, that will fix it.

[oblong]

it could be something done in darkness that very few people are privvy to, like your suggestions on the ball. 

Remember when we had 6 no hitters in April and May 2021?  What was up with that?