2022-23 Detroit Tigers Offseason Thread

[casimir]

11 hours ago, sabretooth said:

FIFY

The first "e" in "milestone" is silent when referring to Cabrera's contract extension.  I remember that rule from Sister Mary Cichy's 3rd grade language arts class.

[Toddwert]

17 hours ago, sabretooth said:

Yeah, I will stop belaboring how awful Miggy is everyday when.

I have any control over whos on the roster

[HeyAbbott]

On 10/8/2022 at 1:01 PM, RatkoVarda said:

I would much prefer they take the $40M hit immediately, even if it is used as a BS excuse to limit spending in 2023

My fear is that spreading it out over multiple years will be used as a BS excuse to limit spending over a longer period

But, sounds like there is no movement to getting rid of Miggy this winter

I know we've beat this dead horse into maggot chow, but, the continued presence of Miggy on the team is a detriment to the progress  and goal congruence of the whole organization. If I were running things, I'd give him a choice between his immediate release, an assistant coach position, or a rehab assignment with the Lakeland Flying Tigers. It needs to be made clear to this organization from top to bottom, and in every niche, corner, and crevice that improved results are the number one goal. There are no exceptions to that now and ever again. Other than this, I'd find a way to put him on the IL to the end of his contract. I never want to see him on the field as a player ever again.

[Tenacious D]

He’s gonna get hurt playing for Venezuela anyway, so this is all moot.

[Motor City Sonics]

Okay, let me dream of this..................They'll have to do 2 things

#1- move that RCF fence in (to not be such a joke and to actually bring in players),  or at least start the process for it.............

#2 - overpay.  it's just a reality that the team will face.  But they don't have to go after Trea Turner or Aaron Judge here, they can go down to the next tier.  This team needs 3 hitters.  You can't go into another season with old man Miggy and Harold as your best hitters.  

Do I think they can do this? No - I still think Chris is going to be cheap, but I do wonder - if he lured a guy away from his hometown team to come  here,  wouldn't he have had to promise he's loosen the purse strings a bit?   

Dreaming of this roster............Go ahead an flog me, if you will

1b/DH - Brandon Belt  (we're talking one year here)
1b/DH - Spencer Torkelson (please get him right, please)
2b - Jon Berti  (bring the guy home, you can fleece Miami, at least he can steal bases)
ss - Javier Baez
3b - Jeimer Candelario
RF -  Riley Greene 
CF - Brandon Nimmo  (OBP OBP OBP)
LF -  Andrew Benintendi (OBP OBP, not worried about HRs)
C - Tucker Barnhart  (the pitching staff was the only bright spot, he had to have something to do with it. 

Bench -
Harold Castro - I like him.  He is a great ultility guy
Eric Haase - Second half saved his season and maybe career.  He can be 1b/Dh/C/Lf role
Jake Rogers - If he can hit at all. 
Victor Reyes, Akil Baddoo or Austin Meadows (if he ever plays again).  Reyes has the advantage because he can play all 3 OF positioins. 

I really don't want to see Willi, Schoop or Clemens again.   

Miggy?  Just pay him to walk away   His 40th birthday is April 18th.  Retire his jersey that day, you don't have to wait for the Hall of Fame.  Throw him  a party and then move on. 

The pitching?  That's a whole 'nother day.   They still need 2 starters don't they ?   Manning, Skubal, Breiske, Mize........we won't see any of them until mid '23 at the earliest, will we?  

Hitting Coaches GONE

Scouting Director GONE

Training Staff NEXT

 

 

  
 

 

[Tenacious D]

27 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said:

Okay, let me dream of this..................They'll have to do 2 things

#1- move that RCF fence in (to not be such a joke and to actually bring in players),  or at least start the process for it.............

#2 - overpay.  it's just a reality that the team will face.  But they don't have to go after Trea Turner or Aaron Judge here, they can go down to the next tier.  This team needs 3 hitters.  You can't go into another season with old man Miggy and Harold as your best hitters.  

Do I think they can do this? No - I still think Chris is going to be cheap, but I do wonder - if he lured a guy away from his hometown team to come  here,  wouldn't he have had to promise he's loosen the purse strings a bit?   

Dreaming of this roster............Go ahead an flog me, if you will

1b/DH - Brandon Belt  (we're talking one year here)
1b/DH - Spencer Torkelson (please get him right, please)
2b - Jon Berti  (bring the guy home, you can fleece Miami, at least he can steal bases)
ss - Javier Baez
3b - Jeimer Candelario
RF -  Riley Greene 
CF - Brandon Nimmo  (OBP OBP OBP)
LF -  Andrew Benintendi (OBP OBP, not worried about HRs)
C - Tucker Barnhart  (the pitching staff was the only bright spot, he had to have something to do with it. 

Bench -
Harold Castro - I like him.  He is a great ultility guy
Eric Haase - Second half saved his season and maybe career.  He can be 1b/Dh/C/Lf role
Jake Rogers - If he can hit at all. 
Victor Reyes, Akil Baddoo or Austin Meadows (if he ever plays again).  Reyes has the advantage because he can play all 3 OF positioins. 

I really don't want to see Willi, Schoop or Clemens again.   

Miggy?  Just pay him to walk away   His 40th birthday is April 18th.  Retire his jersey that day, you don't have to wait for the Hall of Fame.  Throw him  a party and then move on. 

The pitching?  That's a whole 'nother day.   They still need 2 starters don't they ?   Manning, Skubal, Breiske, Mize........we won't see any of them until mid '23 at the earliest, will we?  

Hitting Coaches GONE

Scouting Director GONE

Training Staff NEXT

 

 

  
 

 

What about Fetter?  Has his pitching philosophy contributed to all of the injuries?  I’m not smart enough to know, and not a conspiracy theorist, but Turnbull, Mize, Skubal, Manning, Brieske and Funkhouser have all sustained arm-related injuries. Bad luck?  Sign of the times?  Or something else?  Cody Stavenhagen needs to get to the bottom of this.

[gehringer_2]

3 hours ago, Tenacious D said:

What about Fetter?  Has his pitching philosophy contributed to all of the injuries?  I’m not smart enough to know, and not a conspiracy theorist, but Turnbull, Mize, Skubal, Manning, Brieske and Funkhouser have all sustained arm-related injuries. Bad luck?  Sign of the times?  Or something else?  Cody Stavenhagen needs to get to the bottom of this.

Parameters I'd like to hope the org has the stats to look into:  Are they helping guys acheive breaking ball spin rates that are putting them under more strain than average; or, are they 'unlocking' velo for guys they wouldn't ordinary achieve that is putting them under more arm stress or related to that, are they not fans of guys adding and subtracting from their FB, which may help save wear and tear.; or, are they just encouraging guys to throw more high arm  stress breaking balls as their target pitch mix. 

[buddha]

unpopular opinion: the presence of cabrera on the roster this year had nothing to do with how bad they are.

unpopular opinion #2: the presence of miguel cabrera on the roster next year will have nothing to do with how good or bad they are.

he's not blocking anyone.  let him sit on the bench and play a couple games a week.  or cut him.  doesnt matter in the overall scheme of things.  

[Motor City Sonics]

6 minutes ago, buddha said:

unpopular opinion: the presence of cabrera on the roster this year had nothing to do with how bad they are.

unpopular opinion #2: the presence of miguel cabrera on the roster next year will have nothing to do with how good or bad they are.

he's not blocking anyone.  let him sit on the bench and play a couple games a week.  or cut him.  doesnt matter in the overall scheme of things.  

Well lets acquire some more talent that he actually IS blocking someone for crying out loud.   

[buddha]

1 hour ago, Motor City Sonics said:

Well lets acquire some more talent that he actually IS blocking someone for crying out loud.   

that would be nice.

[mtutiger]

20 minutes ago, buddha said:

that would be nice.

It stands to reason Miggy's presence on the roster or being committed to him can have impacts on their strategy or who they may bring in for 2023. Hence some of the concern.

But if Harris says he can make it work, we should get behind it tbh.

[Evil Roy Slade]

What happened to first base coach Gary Jones?

[HeyAbbott]

8 hours ago, buddha said:

unpopular opinion: the presence of cabrera on the roster this year had nothing to do with how bad they are.

unpopular opinion #2: the presence of miguel cabrera on the roster next year will have nothing to do with how good or bad they are.

he's not blocking anyone.  let him sit on the bench and play a couple games a week.  or cut him.  doesnt matter in the overall scheme of things.  

There is enough rot on this team offensively that Miggy had limited impact on offensive performance. That is not the point in my view. Either an organization conveys to its members and stakeholders it is committed to excellence or it doesn't. The Tigers are in the latter category. It has roughly 40 percent of its 40 man roster that needs to be gone regardless of what they do with Miggy. They need a 3B, an SS and an outfielder, with the outfielder being the easiest to get. I do believe very strongly that Miggy's mere presence is a problem. I also know whatever I think about that has less value than a half pint of cold spit. He will be on the team.

The minimum offensive goal should be a team OPS of .700.

As for Jake Rogers, I assume he will be "Just A Guy" at best next year.

[casimir]

13 hours ago, Tenacious D said:

What about Fetter?  Has his pitching philosophy contributed to all of the injuries?  I’m not smart enough to know, and not a conspiracy theorist, but Turnbull, Mize, Skubal, Manning, Brieske and Funkhouser have all sustained arm-related injuries. Bad luck?  Sign of the times?  Or something else?  Cody Stavenhagen needs to get to the bottom of this.

I also wonder about this.

[casimir]

10 hours ago, buddha said:

unpopular opinion: the presence of cabrera on the roster this year had nothing to do with how bad they are.

unpopular opinion #2: the presence of miguel cabrera on the roster next year will have nothing to do with how good or bad they are.

he's not blocking anyone.  let him sit on the bench and play a couple games a week.  or cut him.  doesnt matter in the overall scheme of things.  

I disagree that he's not blocking anyone.  He's actually blocking anyone else that can field a position and/or run the bases.

[mtutiger]

1 hour ago, casimir said:

I disagree that he's not blocking anyone.  He's actually blocking anyone else that can field a position and/or run the bases.

And I think the opinions frame it more about who he would be blocking internally and kinda sidesteps the fact that the Tigers very well could be looking outside of the organization (through free agency and trade or even waiver wire) in order to upgrade going into 2023. 

1B depth is the most obvious example - Torkelson struggled this year and, despite a stretch of improved play upon his callup, it is less than ideal to have to roll into 2023 with a situation where you have Harold Castro or Eric Haase as your fallback options for depth. With Miggy on the roster, you can't go out and get a Brandon Belt or Eric Hosmer on a one year deal because Miggy, who doesn't field or run the bases at this point, takes that spot.

Outfield is another one - lets say they go want to go out and get someone like Adam Duvall or Mitch Haniger), from there, it's not hard to see them in a situation where they are having to relegate someone to Toledo who is capable of putting up better numbers than Miguel (Kerry Carpenter comes to mind).

Put another way, Miguel isn't just blocking people internally, he could have an impact on how you build this roster from the outside as well. Now, Scott Harris says that he will work around it and, given his track record, I'm good with that. Personally, though, it's hard not to see Miguel as an impediment to the goal of putting the best possible version of the 2023 Detroit Tigers out on the field.

Edited October 10, 2022 by mtutiger

[mtutiger]

And one last thing - I know that some feel that this team will, in all likelihood, not be competitive next year so it doesn't matter if Miguel comes back or not. And I get it, I doubt they will be as well. But after many years of Al Avila, you would think the fanbase would expect the organization to set higher expectations that they do.

Put another way - just because my expectations aren't high doesn't mean I feel the organization should be setting low expectations or pulling punches in terms of building out a 2023 roster. Even though Harris says he will work around it, it is completely justified to feel that Miguel is an impediment to that goal at this point.

[chasfh]

FWIW, I don’t think Harris has confirmed that Miggy is a lock to make next year’s team. What he said was it “is not time to move on from Miguel Cabrera … he's committed to doing the work to make sure that he stays a productive player … he has earned that.” I read that as, at least as of September 30 of this year, we are not committed to either releasing Miggy nor guaranteeing him a spot next year, and it is up to him to show us that he both is willing and ready to make positive contributions to this team in 2023.

I think there’s at least half a chance Harris and A.J. spend the winter massaging the idea into Miggy’s head that it really is time to go, and even though he may show up in Lakeland next February, by the time March 30 rolls around, I think there’s a good chance he will not be on the active roster, and a decent chance he may not even be on the 40-man. Miggy may spend practically the entire year on the 60-day IL, traveling around with the team on his league-wide retirement tour and being our Hall-of-Fame cheerleader in the dugout and clubhouse, and perhaps coming off the list only to have his final ABs in front of the home crowd.

[sabretooth]

12 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

And one last thing - I know that some feel that this team will, in all likelihood, not be competitive next year so it doesn't matter if Miguel comes back or not. And I get it, I doubt they will be as well. But after many years of Al Avila, you would think the fanbase would expect the organization to set higher expectations that they do.

Put another way - just because my expectations aren't high doesn't mean I feel the organization should be setting low expectations or pulling punches in terms of building out a 2023 roster. Even though Harris says he will work around it, it is completely justified to feel that Miguel is an impediment to that goal at this point.

yes Yes YES

I understand that fan expectations probably don't mean anything, but I am sick and tired of hearing fans for 7 years around here use the logic:

- since we're going to be bad we might as well keep Miggy, or

- we should be curtailing spending unless it will guarantee a ring or the playoffs (when no successful franchise does this).

It just feels to me that even after 7 years of brutal losing with very little improvement,  the "I'm a fan and I want to see a winner" perspective seems to get shorted in deference to what some people seem to believe that Charlie Comisky would want to hear from one of his employees.

[sabretooth]

11 minutes ago, chasfh said:

FWIW, I don’t think Harris has confirmed that Miggy is a lock to make next year’s team. What he said was it “is not time to move on from Miguel Cabrera … he's committed to doing the work to make sure that he stays a productive player … he has earned that.” I read that as, at least as of September 30 of this year, we are not committed to either releasing Miggy nor guaranteeing him a spot next year, and it is up to him to show us that he both is willing and ready to make positive contributions to this team in 2023.

I think there’s at least half a chance Harris and A.J. spend the winter massaging the idea into Miggy’s head that it really is time to go, and even though he may show up in Lakeland next February, by the time March 30 rolls around, I think there’s a good chance he will not be on the active roster, and a decent chance he may not even be on the 40-man. Miggy may spend practically the entire year on the 60-day IL, traveling around with the team on his league-wide retirement tour and being our Hall-of-Fame cheerleader in the dugout and clubhouse, and perhaps coming off the list only to have his final ABs in front of the home crowd.

I would be happy with this.

I mean look they would be stupid to treat Miguel with disrespect and hes earned HoF respect.

I'd like the Tigers to start acting more like the Cardinals, in that even with the HoF legends, it is about production and winning, and if you're not producing and winning you're not gonna play.   I get the Cardinals are in that position because they've earned it and because they were a playoff caliber team when Pujols rejoined them.   

Obviously the Tigers havent earned that kind of respect.  However, Harris as the new GM needs to develop the kind of relationship with Miggy and start building higher (and still realistic) expectations for improved on field performance for the organization, so that everybody, even Miggy, will be willing to do what Harris feels is best for the team.

The above may seem pie in the sky to some, but if Miggy is not willing to meet Harris on Harris's terms, then Miggy's approach could be detrimental to the new organizational philosophy, even if its just for one year.

[chasfh]

I think one thing Miggy cannot do is come into Lakeland as a prima Donna and expect the team to revolve around him. I believe there has been a dramatic shift away from that thinking in the past few weeks.

I have no insight here, and this may be a less than 50-50 proposition, but I can envision a situation wherein, if Miggy does something like engage in passive-aggressive horseshit in camp next spring as a way of expressing his displeasure at not having the key role on the team, A.J. and the coaches just start working completely around him and let him do his thing, while they effectively reiterate to the other players what direction the team is going in and, perhaps more importantly, what direction the team is not going in.

Maybe this doesn’t happen at all—maybe Miggy would be entirely on board with essentially not playing and with contributing as strictly a clubhouse presence and leader at the most. But one thing that can’t happen, I think we can all agree, is Miggy being written into the lineup in the #4 or #5 slot every game he is not literally limping while walking.

Edited October 10, 2022 by chasfh

[sabretooth]

Yes.  The loss of production at a key slot notwithstanding, I really don't think that they can afford to send the message with a new regime that .250/.300/.320 is worthy of a middle-order DH slot, not even out of respect for a HoFer, not after the 2022 no-O debacle.

[gehringer_2]

13 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I think one thing Miggy cannot do is ...

True enough.

Then again, just to throw out a Devil's advocate possibility, for all we know the opposite could be true, and he's not going away because he wants to contribute because he doesn't want to take the money for nothing - in which case what the team may have to do is go out of its way to make the point to him that he has 'permission' so to speak,  to take the money and retire - which might not be easy for the management to bring itself to do either! I'd guess there is a lot of opportunity for poor communication/misunderstanding in this situation. 

Edited October 10, 2022 by gehringer_2

[chasfh]

4 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

True enough.

Then again, for all we know the opposite could be true, and he's not going away because he wants to contribute because he doesn't want to take the money for nothing - in which case what the team may have to do is go out of its way to make the point to him that he has 'permission' so to speak,  to take the money and retire. I'd guess there is a lot of opportunity for poor communication/misunderstanding in this situation. 

Miggy definitely does not want the money for nothing, and he will be given the chance to fairly earn the money he will make. I'm just saying, if it turns out he is not capable of that, there are other roles he can fulfill in which he is contributing to the team e.g., building morale, camaraderie and bonhomie among the guys. For a team looking to turn the corner, those kinds of boosts are very valuable.

[mtutiger]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

FWIW, I don’t think Harris has confirmed that Miggy is a lock to make next year’s team. What he said was it “is not time to move on from Miguel Cabrera … he's committed to doing the work to make sure that he stays a productive player … he has earned that.” I read that as, at least as of September 30 of this year, we are not committed to either releasing Miggy nor guaranteeing him a spot next year, and it is up to him to show us that he both is willing and ready to make positive contributions to this team in 2023.

I think there’s at least half a chance Harris and A.J. spend the winter massaging the idea into Miggy’s head that it really is time to go, and even though he may show up in Lakeland next February, by the time March 30 rolls around, I think there’s a good chance he will not be on the active roster, and a decent chance he may not even be on the 40-man. Miggy may spend practically the entire year on the 60-day IL, traveling around with the team on his league-wide retirement tour and being our Hall-of-Fame cheerleader in the dugout and clubhouse, and perhaps coming off the list only to have his final ABs in front of the home crowd.

This all makes a lot of sense to me, though it's speculative. Clearly it's a balancing act that Harris has been tasked with here of keeping Miguel happy while keeping him motivated to be the best version of himself in 2023 while also having to build out next year's roster.