2022-23 Detroit Tigers Offseason Thread

[StatikIEV]

27 minutes ago, bobrob2004 said:

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.fcgi?id=langeal01&year=2022&t=p#catch

The Tigers' analytics department should have this information and much more.  

Edit:

Split	G	IP	ER	ERA	PA	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	SB	CS	BB	SO	SO/W	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS	TB	GDP	HBP	SH	SF	IBB	ROE	BAbip	tOPS+	sOPS+
Tucker Barnhart	33	30.1	0	0.00	108	96	4	10	2	1	0	4	0	10	36	3.60	.104	.204	.146	.350	14	4	2	0	0	0	1	.167	12	2
Dustin Garneau	2	1.1	2	13.50	7	5	1	1	0	0	0	0	0	1	1	1.00	.200	.429	.200	.629	1	0	1	0	0	0	0	.250	101	109
Eric Haase	36	31.2	24	6.82	156	130	31	37	4	1	5	2	1	20	45	2.25	.285	.383	.446	.829	58	0	2	2	2	1	3	.390	164	132

Thanks...I was afraid the formatting might be abit off if I tried, heeh.

[SoCalTiger]

Good on Plies. maybe Harris keeps Chadd a while for his "old School" analysis. 

[StatikIEV]

11 hours ago, SoCalTiger said:

May I ask where do you find this information ? And do you think Scot Harris is aware of this ?

Sorry, I didn't answer your second question.  Hard to assess the thoughts of another person. I will say actions (and reactions) are the most important things...being aware is only half the battle. 

 

Not acting/adjusting to things like seeing that the combo of Haase and Lange is carcinogenic, makes it a sin of either ignorance or stupidity.  So who cares if Hinch/Fetter/old GM (and literally every other person on the Tigers coaching payroll) was aware or not, the result is the same.

There is no skill in coaching baseball, there are a zillion guys that can teach fundamentals and hold a stop watch.  Baseball 'intelligence' is measured by the observational awareness of talent and one's knowledge of a player's situational abilities... and the quicker you are to see it, understand it, and exploit/excise it to your advantage...the better built and run your team will be. It is why some teams always seem to draft better, trade better and get more out of players.  I don't know this for sure...but my hunch is that it is often just one person in an organization with the ability to filter knowledge and that the person has to also have a receptive ear to speak to.  Harris could be that guy.

I will say, it will take no time to find out his Baseball IQ and what he will do with it, as we have a situation no less aggregious than Haase-Lange still presenting itself. Namely, Cabrera is an active player...and he bats 4th. 

One can understand/allow Cabrera's existence in 2022...up to a point, it wasn't a baseball thing, it was a fan expectation/revenue thing; a 'we can make a million bucks in extra revenue for every milestone hit, and then a subsequent cash grab, er ceremony, after each milestone'.   No issues there, the largest factor in success at the major league level for a club is still disposable money to spend in the bank on players.

HOWEVER, fans would have still came if he batted 7th or 8th; and once he had hit 3000, then homerun 500, there is no excuse for not bringing out the 'Victor Martinez retirement chair' 2.0 and letting him choose to sit on it at home...or the end of the dugout for the rest of 2022 and 2023.

Every ab after 500 hr was functionally useless...every AB from the 4/5 hole was to spit in the face of the other players and the organization.  How can you build a culture of winning, motivate it to play hard regardless of the situation...when you have no bat, no leg, no put down the sandwich guy penciled in at 4 whenever he feels up to playing?  Hey, Willie Horton only needs 7 hits to 2000...why don't we keep playing him until he hits it, and let's leave him at the top of the lineup because he is an all-time Tiger great and the fans love him.

Harris is more than aware of this for sure, and the recent news that 'Cabrera will be back' is disconcerting...but we haven't necessarily heard the final details or what the fineprint looks like.

His job is to get Cabrera and his agent in a room, and explain to them that Cabrera is done (in a nice way) and that he also is really bad at life/managing his money, and convince him it would be smart to take his remaining 40 million (32+8) over the next 8 years (+ interest...~5.5/year) so that the club can better manage payroll immediately ie) 30 million+ more to spend immediately should opportunity present.  It's easy to deal with 5 million sunk in a year...not so much with 40.

The sell is that 'Mr. Financial mismanagement' Cabrera gets more money...and a solid paycheck for the next 8 years, and in return for doing this, he gets to 'stay on the team,' as a 'player coach' ..maybe take a few swings here and there for the fans.  Win-win all around. If he doesn't take it...that's it, you have played your last game.  

If the Harris/Hinch tandem puts out the lineup card and Cabrera is DHing 4th in 2023...it means they don't care about anything or anyone, other than a paycheck for themselves over credibility (which is why I have developed a cynical eye for Hinch and his value over his tenure so far).  It tells everyone on the team that skill and work ethic doesn't matter.  And it tells us, the fans of Tiger's baseball, to not watch/buy a ticket...and go find another organization/sport to root for until the house is cleared out, starting from the top...could be a long wait.

...but as all that has yet to happen, let's hope it doesn't, and the 'new fish' brings the necessary change (and backbone) the team deserves.  

[mtutiger]

1 hour ago, oblong said:

Scott Pleis is out as scouting director. No surprise.  No word yet on Chadd. 

Gotta imagine Chadd will have his time in the barrel at some point

[RatkoVarda]

I thought Haase was a drag on pitchers, but that is a truly shocking split (at least for 1 pitcher)

we will see what Harris wants from catchers

Astros have gotten by with elite defensive catchers who are almost incompetent with the bat.

but Arizona wants more offense from C than Carson Kelly, but he has strong splits vs their other catchers.

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2022/10/hazen-d-backs-to-pursue-bullpen-help-open-to-adding-at-catcher.html

 

[gehringer_2]

20 minutes ago, StatikIEV said:

Sorry, I didn't answer your second question.  ....

This a great post. But on Cabrera while I agree in general, I would say the issue with Cabrera didn't really become an issue after 500/3000, but it happen later. Up until roughly the ASG, Miguel was carrying near enough to the best OPS on the team to be where he was (720 on July 5, which for this team was probably 1 or 2 or 3 at the time?). The problem was that the knee pretty gave out completely immediately after that and there was no recognitions or willingness to deal with the change in situation. So again, it goes right back to failure to recognize what the *current* situation is as compared to being on auto-pilot with your prior expections or personal preferences. 

Now Chasfh also makes the completely valid point that some of the behavior seen once it was clear the season was lost began to be driven by non-competitive considerations. The question of whether you accept that as OK is a philosophical one, rather than an objectively competive one.

Edited October 8, 2022 by gehringer_2

[RatkoVarda]

53 minutes ago, StatikIEV said:

His job is to get Cabrera and his agent in a room, and explain to them that Cabrera is done (in a nice way) and that he also is really bad at life/managing his money, and convince him it would be smart to take his remaining 40 million (32+8) over the next 8 years (+ interest...~5.5/year) so that the club can better manage payroll immediately ie) 30 million+ more to spend immediately should opportunity present.  It's easy to deal with 5 million sunk in a year...not so much with 40.

I would much prefer they take the $40M hit immediately, even if it is used as a BS excuse to limit spending in 2023

My fear is that spreading it out over multiple years will be used as a BS excuse to limit spending over a longer period

But, sounds like there is no movement to getting rid of Miggy this winter

[Jim Cowan]

No one wants Cabrera, least of all Scott Harris.  I think it's a bit strong to say that if Cabrera is here it means that Scott Harris doesn't care about results.  It might only mean that he didn't want to DFA him.  I don't think that there is any sort of humiliating goodwill role that Cabrera will accept.  We probably won't know until the end of spring training.

[Jim Cowan]

2 hours ago, RatkoVarda said:

I would much prefer they take the $40M hit immediately, even if it is used as a BS excuse to limit spending in 2023

My fear is that spreading it out over multiple years will be used as a BS excuse to limit spending over a longer period

But, sounds like there is no movement to getting rid of Miggy this winter

Yes, get the $40 million over with in the next 12 months.  Once that contract expires I don't ever want to hear about it again.

[chasfh]

14 minutes ago, Jim Cowan said:

No one wants Cabrera, least of all Scott Harris.  I think it's a bit strong to say that if Cabrera is here it means that Scott Harris doesn't care about results.  It might only mean that he didn't want to DFA him.  I don't think that there is any sort of humiliating goodwill role that Cabrera will accept.  We probably won't know until the end of spring training.

Right—nothing about Miguel Cabrera is going to be resolved until well into spring training. They will give him the chance to be born again hard, and really, I’m fine with that idea. But once they see that he is not only as bad as 2022, but even a year worse, then they will have to aggressively manage the situation to limit his playing time, and I can see them doing that with IL manipulation.

[Dan Gilmore]

The analysis of the problems are good (Haase/Miggy), it’s the binary action plans that could use some nuance IMO.

[gehringer_2]

34 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Right—nothing about Miguel Cabrera is going to be resolved until well into spring training. They will give him the chance to be born again hard, and really, I’m fine with that idea. But once they see that he is not only as bad as 2022, but even a year worse, then they will have to aggressively manage the situation to limit his playing time, and I can see them doing that with IL manipulation.

That would be the easy result. The hard one will be if he comes to ST and does hit, and maybe again, hits for high average but little or no power again. So can you/will you make a roster spot for him knowing full well that the knee might put him back into a state of futility for the rest of the season at any time? This is going to test a lot of aspects of the organization to get right - their medical staff, training staff, evaluation of the players that will have to be let go if Miguel stays, etc.

And even under the best imaginable circumstance where he is productive, I wouldn't try to play him more than 120 games so you have to consider how you fill the DH for those other 40 games.

Edited October 8, 2022 by gehringer_2

[Jim Cowan]

2 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

That would be the easy result. The hard one will be if he comes to ST and does hit, and maybe again, hits for high average but little or no power again. So can you/will you make a roster spot for him knowing full well that the knee might put him back into a state of futility at any time?

Yes, you don't have any choice other than to DFA him, same as it has ever been.

[casimir]

5 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

shoes need to drop until BWNDITWB* is never again heard in the Tiger org.....

 

 

 

*(butweveneverdoneitthatwaybefore)

I’d leave Jim Schmakel alone.  Everyone else might be wise to limit their personal effects around the office.

Edited October 8, 2022 by casimir

[Tenacious D]

Are we going to belabor and exhaust the Cabrera situation?  He’s on the team next season.  Next topic, please.

[casimir]

1 hour ago, Jim Cowan said:

No one wants Cabrera, least of all Scott Harris.  I think it's a bit strong to say that if Cabrera is here it means that Scott Harris doesn't care about results.  It might only mean that he didn't want to DFA him.  I don't think that there is any sort of humiliating goodwill role that Cabrera will accept.  We probably won't know until the end of spring training.

It’s entirely possible that Harris was hired with the stipulation that Cabrera stays on for 2023 unless it’s just a completely unsustainable situation.

And in all honesty, sure, it’s easy for any of us to sit back and say that we’d dump Cabrera if we were in Harris’ role.  Ain’t that easy in the reality of it.  We see the value of freeing up the roster spot and don’t care about the sunk cost.  Who knows what they project for revenue potential with vs without Cabrera.  Heck, that might not even be the deciding factor.

The way I see it, unless he is actually removed from the roster, he is on it for 2023 as a part time DH.  Harris is going to need to build a 25 man roster around the 26th man Cabrera.  And you hate for the guy to get injured, but any time spent on the injured list probably helps the Tigers in that roster maintenance aspect.

[bobrob2004]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

Right—nothing about Miguel Cabrera is going to be resolved until well into spring training. They will give him the chance to be born again hard, and really, I’m fine with that idea. But once they see that he is not only as bad as 2022, but even a year worse, then they will have to aggressively manage the situation to limit his playing time, and I can see them doing that with IL manipulation.

If Miggy plays in the baseball classic like he intends, he won't be here for Spring Training. 

[Jim Cowan]

4 minutes ago, Tenacious D said:

Are we going to belabor and exhaust the Cabrera situation?  He’s on the team next season.  Next topic, please.

Yes I had thought that we were finished with that.

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, Tenacious D said:

Are we going to belabor and exhaust the Cabrera situation?  He’s on the team next season.  Next topic, please.

Seems fair, he's belabored and exhausted us as baseball fans for going on six seasons now....

Edited October 8, 2022 by gehringer_2

[romad1]

The freep article today about the firing of Pleis was full of emphasis on how David Chadd is still employed.

 

[sabretooth]

38 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Seems fair, he's belabored and exhausted us as baseball fans for going on  seasons now....

Yeah, I will stop belaboring how awful Miggy is everyday when he stops being awful everyday.

[casimir]

59 minutes ago, sabretooth said:

Yeah, I will stop belaboring how awful Miggy is everyday when he stops being awful everyday.

But the milestones……

[1984Echoes]

1 hour ago, sabretooth said:

Yeah, I will stop belaboring how awful Miggy is everyday when he ...

... is no longer on the roster.

[sabretooth]

...that will get the job done

[sabretooth]

1 hour ago, casimir said:

But the millstone……

FIFY