chasfh Posted October 15, 2022 Author Share Posted October 15, 2022 The perfect candidate for the most Al Avila position player brought in during his tenure would be a guy no one ever heard of before he came here, signed by Al at just beyond prospect age, and has tools that tantalize just often enough to fool him to believing good production is right around the corner. The candidate has homer pop but strikes out a ton and can’t take a walk; has an iron glove that balls just clank off of and a wild arm he can’t control; looks like he should fit in at any position but can’t actually play any of them; gets way more reps on the field in the hope he will prove out the signing than any other organization would ever dare give him; and once he leaves, never steps into a major league stadium ever again without having to buy a ticket. Ladies and gentleman, I present to you: Ronny Rodriguez. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyMarsh Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 19 minutes ago, casimir said: I know the popular theory is that at least one of Candelario and Schoop do not return next season. The free agency list just isn't there for both 3B and 2B. Trades and waiver wire acquisitions are always questionable to predict. I can see a scenario where they are both back (ugh....). I did see commentary somewheres on the idiotnet about Harris taking a season to evaluate some things. And I think its fully understood that he cannot patch up all of the holes in one offseason. He's had his look at the organization from the outside and probably had ideas on what needed to be kept/changed from that viewpoint. But now that he's on the inside, you kind of wonder how his list of priorities has evolved from the first week to now. It's depressing to say cause we already been through such a long rebuild but if I were him I would basically just chalk up 2023 as a lost season and don't even plan on competing. That's not to say that I would be opposed to signing a relatively young FA or completely splurging on high end guys but I don't want to sign some average stop gap guys to multi year deals that will only add marginal improvement at best. I would be more focused on making sure the right people are in place from a player development standpoint. If we get that right maybe we can coach up some of these guys from the last couple drafts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 1 hour ago, RandyMarsh said: It's depressing to say cause we already been through such a long rebuild but if I were him I would basically just chalk up 2023 as a lost season and don't even plan on competing. That's not to say that I would be opposed to signing a relatively young FA or completely splurging on high end guys but I don't want to sign some average stop gap guys to multi year deals that will only add marginal improvement at best. I would be more focused on making sure the right people are in place from a player development standpoint. If we get that right maybe we can coach up some of these guys from the last couple drafts. I would be happy with prioritizing setting up the structure of the organization. Set up the mechanisms of the on field talent acquisition & development parts of the franchise. Get the bones of the structure in place. I think we are seeing some of that now with some of the job postings that have been broadcast. And the eventual GM hiring falls in place with this as well. That's not to say that filling out the major league team isn't on the to do list for 2023. But take decisions like Candelario & Schoop. If they decide to take the chance that they are recoverable pieces with the right batting coaches, that's fine. Focus on a RHH OF, healthy SP arms, some depth at C (the recent swap of Papierski in and Sanchez out ain't that) this offseason as the top of the player shuffling, OK, I can see that as reasonable. And they probably need to hope like crazy that Baez has an absolute bounce back to use his opt out. I think now that he's been on the roster for a season, it is more apparent that he cannot be the best player on a good team. He can be a valuable part of a championship roster, be he cannot be the player to build around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cowan Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 8 minutes ago, casimir said: I would be happy with prioritizing setting up the structure of the organization. Set up the mechanisms of the on field talent acquisition & development parts of the franchise. Get the bones of the structure in place. I think we are seeing some of that now with some of the job postings that have been broadcast. And the eventual GM hiring falls in place with this as well. That's not to say that filling out the major league team isn't on the to do list for 2023. But take decisions like Candelario & Schoop. If they decide to take the chance that they are recoverable pieces with the right batting coaches, that's fine. Focus on a RHH OF, healthy SP arms, some depth at C (the recent swap of Papierski in and Sanchez out ain't that) this offseason as the top of the player shuffling, OK, I can see that as reasonable. And they probably need to hope like crazy that Baez has an absolute bounce back to use his opt out. I think now that he's been on the roster for a season, it is more apparent that he cannot be the best player on a good team. He can be a valuable part of a championship roster, be he cannot be the player to build around. Yes, do the organization first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 1 hour ago, chasfh said: The perfect candidate for the most Al Avila position player brought in during his tenure would be a guy no one ever heard of before he came here, signed by Al at just beyond prospect age, and has tools that tantalize just often enough to fool him to believing good production is right around the corner. The candidate has homer pop but strikes out a ton and can’t take a walk; has an iron glove that balls just clank off of and a wild arm he can’t control; looks like he should fit in at any position but can’t actually play any of them; gets way more reps on the field in the hope he will prove out the signing than any other organization would ever dare give him; and once he leaves, never steps into a major league stadium ever again without having to buy a ticket. Ladies and gentleman, I present to you: Ronny Rodriguez. For a while there I thought you were talking about JD Martinez. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyMarsh Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 1 hour ago, chasfh said: The perfect candidate for the most Al Avila position player brought in during his tenure would be a guy no one ever heard of before he came here, signed by Al at just beyond prospect age, and has tools that tantalize just often enough to fool him to believing good production is right around the corner. The candidate has homer pop but strikes out a ton and can’t take a walk; has an iron glove that balls just clank off of and a wild arm he can’t control; looks like he should fit in at any position but can’t actually play any of them; gets way more reps on the field in the hope he will prove out the signing than any other organization would ever dare give him; and once he leaves, never steps into a major league stadium ever again without having to buy a ticket. Ladies and gentleman, I present to you: Ronny Rodriguez. I completely forgot about Ronny Rodriguez, I definitely didn't realize how much play he got until checking out his stats. I must've completely blocked most of those from my memory cause I just have the recollection of him only playing sparingly for a season not 140 games and 500 at bats over 2 seasons like he did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalTiger Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 I agree building the foundation or repairing it is first priority and filling the roster with mediocre players on multiple year deals just delays the take off but goodness gracious DO NOT trot out the same team in 2023. Who can stomach warmed leftovers of rotten food. Give us something fresh and at least make it interesting if we miss the playoffs. I demand better and we all sure as hell deserve better. MUCH better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 4 hours ago, chasfh said: The perfect candidate for the most Al Avila position player brought in during his tenure would be a guy no one ever heard of before he came here, signed by Al at just beyond prospect age, and has tools that tantalize just often enough to fool him to believing good production is right around the corner. The candidate has homer pop but strikes out a ton and can’t take a walk; has an iron glove that balls just clank off of and a wild arm he can’t control; looks like he should fit in at any position but can’t actually play any of them; gets way more reps on the field in the hope he will prove out the signing than any other organization would ever dare give him; and once he leaves, never steps into a major league stadium ever again without having to buy a ticket. Ladies and gentleman, I present to you: Ronny Rodriguez. To be honest... He also needs to be memorable. And I don't even really remember Ronny Rodriguez. When did we sign him? I think the name is weakly, barely familiar... but so barely as to not even register. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted October 15, 2022 Author Share Posted October 15, 2022 34 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: To be honest... He also needs to be memorable. And I don't even really remember Ronny Rodriguez. When did we sign him? I think the name is weakly, barely familiar... but so barely as to not even register. But see, that’s really the point: he didn’t need to be memorable at all. That’s what makes him the perfect candidate for the most Al Avila position player ever! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeyAbbott Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 5 hours ago, RandyMarsh said: It's depressing to say cause we already been through such a long rebuild but if I were him I would basically just chalk up 2023 as a lost season and don't even plan on competing. That's not to say that I would be opposed to signing a relatively young FA or completely splurging on high end guys but I don't want to sign some average stop gap guys to multi year deals that will only add marginal improvement at best. I would be more focused on making sure the right people are in place from a player development standpoint. If we get that right maybe we can coach up some of these guys from the last couple drafts. Realistically, we have maybe 3 position players that would find a position on any other existing MLB team. We are 6 to 8 position players shy from being a true MLB team. We are 3 starting pitchers short of being reliably mediocre. Forty percent of the 40 man is worthless cannon fodder. 2023 is a lost cause as is 2024 is most likely. We should be able to find 2 or 3 players that will contribute long term. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenacious D Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, HeyAbbott said: Realistically, we have maybe 3 position players that would find a position on any other existing MLB team. We are 6 to 8 position players shy from being a true MLB team. We are 3 starting pitchers short of being reliably mediocre. Forty percent of the 40 man is worthless cannon fodder. 2023 is a lost cause as is 2024 is most likely. We should be able to find 2 or 3 players that will contribute long term. Agree. Everyone has strong opinions of who should be taken off of the 40-man, rightfully so. However as easy as it will be to cut players, it will be equally difficult to replace them with playoff-caliber talent. When I get excited or optimistic about guys like Keith, Jung, Perez and lil' Meadows, I'm reminded about how much our more heralded and sure-thing prospects Tork and Greene struggled--with little evidence that they will come close to their potential. This will be a 3-year process, at least. And there is little evidence that Harris will be the guy--I'm optimistic, but there is a bit of blind faith required. At least he was part of two organizations that saw success, and hopefully his contributions were significant. It will be interesting if he takes a patient approach, similar to Avila, or makes moves that might be inconsistent with how he would normally approach building a roster by making a bigger splash into free agency, which is his only avenue to improve the major league team in 2023-24. Edited October 15, 2022 by Tenacious D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 4 hours ago, SoCalTiger said: I agree building the foundation or repairing it is first priority and filling the roster with mediocre players on multiple year deals just delays the take off but goodness gracious DO NOT trot out the same team in 2023. Who can stomach warmed leftovers of rotten food. Give us something fresh and at least make it interesting if we miss the playoffs. I demand better and we all sure as hell deserve better. MUCH better. How many spots on the 26/40 man rosters can they turn over in an offseason? What's the realistic expectation given lackluster free agent options? Maybe I'm taking too conservative of an outlook on it. I'm just not sure the resources outside of the organization are going to be available to acquire to pull this team up to .500. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 On 10/13/2022 at 7:20 PM, sabretooth said: Are people assuming that Correa will likely not come here because Detroit is viewed as a bad team or because we assume that Chris will not endorse $$ or both? None of the above. Given Harris' history (particularly with the Giants, but also to an extent with the Cubs), I am skeptical that 10 year contracts are something he is keen on. That's not to say the Tigers will not be active in the shortstop market, but I dont think Correa is in the plans tbh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, HeyAbbott said: Realistically, we have maybe 3 position players that would find a position on any other existing MLB team. We are 6 to 8 position players shy from being a true MLB team. We are 3 starting pitchers short of being reliably mediocre. Forty percent of the 40 man is worthless cannon fodder. 2023 is a lost cause as is 2024 is most likely. We should be able to find 2 or 3 players that will contribute long term. I think we need to see what Harris does this offseason. He laid the markers down about putting the best possible team out on the field versus a perpetual rebuild in his introductory press conference. And the other thing is the culture of the place he came from: during his time there, the Giants had developed internally, but they had been a great example of a team that has added from the outside in order to be good or respectable. Both in terms of free agency, trades and waiver wire. We are perpetually jaded because of how the Avila era went. But I have a feeling that our jadedness is influenced by having watched Avila for so long... someone with new ideas may be able to pull off some moves that we don't see coming because of how we have been conditioned during the Avila era Edited October 15, 2022 by mtutiger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenacious D Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 anyone concerned that Harris' Giants went from the best record in MLB in 2021, to a .500 team this season, despite signing free agents (Rodon and Pederson)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cowan Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 1 hour ago, mtutiger said: None of the above. Given Harris' history (particularly with the Giants, but also to an extent with the Cubs), I am skeptical that 10 year contracts are something he is keen on. That's not to say the Tigers will not be active in the shortstop market, but I dont think Correa is in the plans tbh Correa isn't getting 10 years from anyone at this point, so that by itself doesn't rule the Tigers out. He might spend the rest of his career on 1 year deals if he continues to insist on Lindor's AAV, but I don't think that Harris will even do that. I think he will view that Twins contract as an overpay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeyAbbott Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 1 hour ago, mtutiger said: I think we need to see what Harris does this offseason. He laid the markers down about putting the best possible team out on the field versus a perpetual rebuild in his introductory press conference. And the other thing is the culture of the place he came from: during his time there, the Giants had developed internally, but they had been a great example of a team that has added from the outside in order to be good or respectable. Both in terms of free agency, trades and waiver wire. We are perpetually jaded because of how the Avila era went. But I have a feeling that our jadedness is influenced by having watched Avila for so long... someone with new ideas may be able to pull off some moves that we don't see coming because of how we have been conditioned during the Avila era Granted I am very jaded at this juncture. I also think it is possible to field an improved team as the organization is rebuilt. With a quality catcher added from FA, a reasonable SS and an additional RH OF the team would be at least entertaining. I cannot tolerate another 100 ABS of Willie Castro though. And I certainly cannot watch a team that is literally the worst offensive pro baseball that Detroit has seen in the last century. There just comes a point where there needs to be some minimal expectations from this team. I expect a team to have a .700 OPS which in 2022 would have made it number 15, smack dab in the middle of all of MLB. I expect average defense. I am very weary of hearing the endless excuses for why we can't even aspire to mediocrity, let alone excellence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabretooth Posted October 16, 2022 Share Posted October 16, 2022 2 hours ago, mtutiger said: None of the above. Given Harris' history (particularly with the Giants, but also to an extent with the Cubs), I am skeptical that 10 year contracts are something he is keen on. That's not to say the Tigers will not be active in the shortstop market, but I dont think Correa is in the plans tbh FWIW, I would not want a 10 year contract or any similar time frame, and I also doubt that he will get that length....but I freely admit that I could be dead wrong about that. I hope its something more like 5 - 7 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalTiger Posted October 16, 2022 Share Posted October 16, 2022 I expect a much improved team with significant turnover in 2023 and I have confidence Harris will deliver. How much better will hinge on bounce back years from key players and and to what degree Harris's "calculated risks" pan out. I do not think he will wait a year to evaluate what we have. He already knows our talent, on an objective basis, and if he is as bright as advertised there is no reason to wait. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted October 16, 2022 Share Posted October 16, 2022 6 hours ago, chasfh said: But see, that’s really the point: he didn’t need to be memorable at all. That’s what makes him the perfect candidate for the most Al Avila position player ever! I was thinking the opposite: Someone who is forgettable well... you sorta don't think about them if you can't even remember them. As opposed to someone that annoys or particularly vexes you (meaning anyone, not specifically "you")... because they hang around for multiple years antagonizing everyone with their mediocrity or less than mediocrity... Niko antagonized Tigers fans for 4 years and almost 1,500 PA's of mediocrity. Willi 4 years of annoying 1,200 PA's... Dawel Lugo was 3 years and 400 PA's of completely abysmal... And all (3) heavily weigh upon our thoughts of how Avila F'd up with his choices; and that these names will never be forgotten for their less-than-mediocre, abysmal performances... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted October 16, 2022 Share Posted October 16, 2022 PS: I actually wanted to stick this specific line in my prior post and it completely slipped out of my mind (the perfect description of an Al Avila player): "A guy who sticks in your craw." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobrob2004 Posted October 16, 2022 Share Posted October 16, 2022 1 hour ago, 1984Echoes said: Someone who is forgettable well... you sorta don't think about them if you can't even remember them. Can anyone name the starting 2019 Tigers infield without looking it up? It was only 3 years ago. That whole team was forgettable, probably because everyone stopped watching them. But I guess that's what happens when you lose 114 games. As for the player that defines Avila's time with the Tigers? I don't know. I'm Stumpf. Daniel Stumpf. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted October 16, 2022 Share Posted October 16, 2022 12 minutes ago, bobrob2004 said: As for the player that defines Avila's time with the Tigers? I don't know. I'm Stumpf. Daniel Stumpf. Fair choice, but for me it was Niko. A player whose limitations were completely obvious to everyone *except* Al Avlia from pretty much day one. He encapsulated poor pre-acquisition scouting, inability to raise a player's level, refusal to honestly evaluate current talent, and commitment to looking for the wrong player profile in the first place - all in one. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted October 16, 2022 Share Posted October 16, 2022 Willi Castro. Can't draw a walk, can't find a position for him, finally goes to outfield but can't hit enough to be an outfielder. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted October 16, 2022 Share Posted October 16, 2022 1 minute ago, Tiger337 said: Willi Castro. Can't draw a walk, can't find a position for him, finally goes to outfield but can't hit enough to be an outfielder. Willi is right up there for sure, but I thought I'd pick from players whose failure cycle had completed and were gone. 🙄 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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