chasfh Posted October 26, 2021 Share Posted October 26, 2021 17 hours ago, gehringer_2 said: well certainly what happened is prima facie evidence that someone was negligent so that is a given. Negligence will always exist on some kind of distribution. But to take that question back to the original premise: How much Is the negligence rate among the professionals driven by attitudes in the wider society vs the quality of the institutional procedure enforcement? I suppose you can take the argument back a level and the it's the latter that is driven by external attitudes but that's another somewhat different case to make. I supposed a trained professional might be able to tease out whether negligence is even a little culturally driven, which would mean it is manifested on a more industry-wide basis, as opposed to a strictly individual negligence that is a one-off random incident. I’d bet there will be stories that come out during this media cycle that will discuss general armorer practices in Hollywood, so maybe we can glean clues from those. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted October 26, 2021 Share Posted October 26, 2021 There'd be more cases of this happening if there were cultural negligence. This AD was fired from a previous job for gun misfires so obviously he's got something going on. There's thousands of movies that were made where guns were used and only twice that we know of did anyone get killed. I don't count the guy who shot himself with a blank in this analysis. Did the production company go cheap and hire an inexperienced armorer who assumed if she gave it clear to the AD then she did her job? That's another consideration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted October 26, 2021 Share Posted October 26, 2021 https://consequence.net/2021/10/alec-baldwin-shooting-armorer-ad-safety-issues/ Last Thursday, a prop gun fired by Alec Baldwin killed Rust cinematographer Halyna Hutchins, and while law enforcement officials are still looking into the matter, her tragic death is thought to have been an accident brought about by oversights from armorer Hannah Gutierrez-Reed, who prepared the weapon, and assistant director (AD) Dave Halls, who declared the weapon safe and handed it to Baldwin. However, as an investigation by Consequence shows, the histories of both Gutierrez-Reed and Halls are full of other accidents: gun misfires, close calls, and complaints alleging a disregard for safety protocols. Gutierrez-Reed is 24 years old and the daughter of legendary Hollywood weapons master Thell Reed (Mr. and Mrs. Smith, Miami Vice, Django Unchained, Once Upon a Time in Hollywood.) Rust was only her second professional credit as an armorer, with the first coming on the Nicolas Cage Western The Old Way, due out in 2022. According to Stu Brumbaugh, who served as key grip on The Old Way, her inexperience put the cast and crew in several unnecessarily dangerous situations. To be clear, Brumbaugh doesn’t fault Gutierrez-Reed for what happened on The Old Way. “I would put the blame 100% on the producers,” who he says were too stingy to hire someone more experienced. “What it boils down to is producers being cheap and not giving departments the manpower to do things safely and efficiently,” he added, explaining that “her age and inexperience were a factor in a lot of what’s going on right now.” Advertisement Gutierrez-Reed seemed not only overworked, but also unaware of proper safety protocols. “She made some rookie mistakes on more than one occasion on our set.” Guns loaded with blanks still fire a wad at potentially fatal velocity, but she rarely informed the cast and crew that they were around dangerous weapons. “The first incident was that she walked out on set with live rounds,” which in this context means blanks, not bullets. “There was no announcement made by the AD or herself about walking on set with blanks loaded in firearms.” Besides that, she wasn’t carrying the firearms safely. “She had pistols tucked under her armpits and was carrying rifles in each hand. So she had too many weapons in her hands that were ready to be used in the scene.” At one point, the firearms were aimed at Brumbaugh. “She turned around and the pistols that were under her armpits were pointed back at us. I was like, ‘Woah!’,” he said, imitating a shout. “It just seemed like she had too much going on.” Twice, she fired guns on set without giving warning. First, she was demonstrating gun volume to see if it would startle the horses. “All of a sudden the gun goes off. I yelled, ‘Fuck man! Make a fucking announcement!'” The second time caused an issue with star Nicolas Cage. “It happened again about two days later as Nic Cage walked by. She fired off a round right as Nic Cage was walking by and he was pissed off. He yelled, ‘Make an announcement, you just blew my fucking ear drums out!'” Immediately afterwards, Cage walked off set in a state of rage. Advertisement While Brumbaugh doesn’t hold Gutierrez-Reed responsible– he noted that everyone in Hollywood, himself included, started off young and hungry — he did advocate for her dismissal. “I made the comment after a couple of discharges on our set that weren’t announced, I told the AD, ‘She needs to be fucking fired. You need an experienced armorer in there. That’s not ok.'” “It wasn’t malice, it wasn’t that she was coming from a bad place, it wasn’t not caring, because she did care about her job. She was inexperienced,” Brumbaugh said. “You can’t fault someone for being inexperienced.” The word ‘inexperienced’ does not apply to Rust AD Dave Halls, who has previously worked on Reno 911, Bones, and The Matrix Reloaded. Last week, Consequence reported on his troubling history of ignoring safety protocols, including pressuring crewmembers to skip safety rehearsals. Now, we know that Halls was fired from the upcoming Civil War drama Freedom’s Path after a gun accidentally discharged on set. In an exclusive interview with Consequence, script supervisor Patrick McSherry explained what happened. he production had hired an armorer who “knew a lot about guns and not much about film stuff,” a problem that was exacerbated by Halls. “There were no safety rehearsals that I can recall,” McSherry said. During the accidental discharge, the shot involved a close-up on a musket. It was supposed to capture the moment the trigger was pulled, but the camera didn’t take in the end of the gun barrel, and there was no reason for the gun to be loaded with a blank. Everyone thought the weapon was clear. Then, “I heard a bang,” McSherry said. “The boom operator cried out and ripped his headphones off.” The boom operator was evaluated by an on-site medic. As for Halls, “He was fired right afterwards and they got a different AD.” Freedom’s Path was produced by Rocket Soul Studios. In a statement to Consequence, the studio wrote, “First of all, our condolences go out to everyone affected by the recent tragic event in New Mexico. I can confirm that Dave Halls was fired from the set of Freedom’s Path in 2019 after a crew member incurred a minor and temporary injury when a gun was unexpectedly discharged. Halls was removed from set immediately after the prop gun discharged. Production did not resume filming until Dave was off-site. An incident report was taken and filed at that time.” Last week, Consequence reported that multiple safety complaints had been filed against Halls. One person who took action against him, Maggie Goll, has decided to speak on the record, explaining, “I am prepared for the consequences of using my voice. If not now, when?” After a bad experience with Halls on a Blumhouse production, Goll filed a complaint with Blumhouse as well as the Director’s Guild of America, and she also prepared an affidavit to the union, IATSE Local 871. Advertisement Goll worked on Blumhouse and Hulu’s Into the Dark anthology series, and following a hiatus, she returned to the production after Halls had been hired as AD. In an email to Consequence, she wrote, “On my first day back on the series, another crew member told me to ‘watch out’ for Dave, saying he was too physically familiar with the crew, despite many rebuffs and complaints about unwanted and unnecessary touches. Nothing too extreme, but crew members of all genders and dispositions were being made uncomfortable by Dave’s touches to their backs, waists, shoulders, etc.” Besides that, Halls consistently skipped safety announcements and ignored best practices. “The Prop Master frequently admonished Dave for dismissing the talent without returning props, weapons included, or failing to make safety announcements,” Goll said. “I also had to insist and remind Dave to announce the use of practical elements and to establish a safe exit plan and gathering point, in the case of an emergency. Why this wasn’t done automatically, after days and weeks of having people tell him to make these announcements, I do not know. He just never got it.” One day, Halls tried to film a scene with pyrotechnics while the person authorized to set it alight was suffering from a medical emergency. Goll said, “I extinguished all flames, disconnected fuel-delivery systems, removed fuels from the set, disconnected the electronic firing systems, and gathered any article that could be used to ignite or set off any of our elements.” Meanwhile, Halls tried to restart production. “He called out to the rest of the crew that, ‘Maggie said we can keep going.’ To be clear, I told him they are free to film whatever they want, but that there would be no fire or sparks, etc., until the medic, fire safety officer, and all of my crewmates were safely back on set.” She explained, “I continued to stand my ground as Dave kept trying to call for us to restart and the associate producer threatened me with full responsibility for the failure to complete that day’s work — all while one of our own was in a state of diabetic shock and on the cusp of serious injury, possibly death. None of the other required safety personnel were present, and yet they wanted to push on. I had had it. I stood in the middle of that room, preventing any shot, with my arms crossed and my resolve firm. They found something else to point a camera at.” According to Goll, lots of people in the film industry — herself included — “have concerns about speaking honestly about bad situations without retribution.” “It is a lose-lose situation for many who do report. And yet I did. Internally to Blumhouse — who seemingly did nothing; a direct message to the DGA — though at the time I was just starting out and sent it to the general info address and it was, unsurprisingly, not followed up on to my knowledge; and I also prepared an affidavit in support of an 871 member that during the course of the spring was “let go” from the series due to professional differences with the First, Dave Halls. She had reported personal abuses from him, as well as professional, and was pursuing a grievance through Local 871 regarding the manner of her dismissal. I do not know the result of that process, but Dave was on set and she wasn’t. It was altogether a terrible experience for someone who was just starting their career in the film industry.” Consequence was unable to reach Halls or Gutierrez-Reed for comment. Approximately six hours before the fatal gunshot on the set of Rust, union crewmembers staged a walk-out to protest poor and unsafe working conditions, including a lack of safety rehearsals and multiple gun misfires. As for Baldwin, he broke his silence on the shooting to write, “There are no words to convey my shock and sadness regarding the tragic accident that took the life of Halyna Hutchins.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigeraholic1 Posted October 26, 2021 Share Posted October 26, 2021 Umm sounds like Gutierrez is at fault (funny how they keep saying they don't blame her). Tons of red flags.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted October 26, 2021 Share Posted October 26, 2021 (edited) 58 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said: Umm sounds like Gutierrez is at fault (funny how they keep saying they don't blame her). Tons of red flags.... it's interesting to see how many people are out for Baldwin's scalp with that argument that the actor needed to have checked for himself, but they obviously don't understand how the sets work. This is not a hunting trip. There are various of kinds of prop loads that are used in film and the whole idea is that the actors are not the specialists in the pyrotechnics, the armorers are. Even if he had looked and seen some kind of round in the chamber, it's not his expertise to be able to identify or evaluate that risk of that round. The guns are often "loaded", the question is "with what?" and how is the set environment configured to be safe based on that loading? Edited October 26, 2021 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted October 26, 2021 Share Posted October 26, 2021 1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said: it's interesting to see how many people are out for Baldwin's scalp with that argument that the actor needed to have checked for himself, but they obviously don't understand how the sets work. This is not a hunting trip. There are various of kinds of prop loads that are used in film and the whole idea is that the actors are not the specialists in the pyrotechnics, the armorers are. Even if he had looked and seen some kind of round in the chamber, it's not his expertise to be able to identify or evaluate that risk of that round. The guns are often "loaded", the question is "with what?" and how is the set environment configured to be safe based on that loading? It's political... You can't and should not count on an actor to be a line of defense when it comes to safety. That's not what they train for. Yes, sure some could do it but you can't make that a standard and it should not be part of any official process. They learn their lines and the approach and their marks, walk on, and shoot the scene. That's why you have a crew. Everyone has a job. From what I have read an armorer should be the one that personally checks a weapon and hands to the actor. Nobody in between. I also don't like when I see things like "Baldwin fired a prop gun". It wasn't a prop. A prop gun is one that cannot fire anything, like a toy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted October 26, 2021 Share Posted October 26, 2021 7 hours ago, oblong said: There'd be more cases of this happening if there were cultural negligence. This AD was fired from a previous job for gun misfires so obviously he's got something going on. There's thousands of movies that were made where guns were used and only twice that we know of did anyone get killed. I don't count the guy who shot himself with a blank in this analysis. Did the production company go cheap and hire an inexperienced armorer who assumed if she gave it clear to the AD then she did her job? That's another consideration. Sure, if there were any other deaths due to this kind of mishap, we'd know. But what we don't know is how many close calls there have been, how many times people were lucky and got away with it. Those don't make the news. Maybe there have been a lot. Maybe it practically never happens. We don't know, at least yet. We also don't know the level of chalance or nonchalance, due to cultural influences, that are attended to this kind of job, at least in America as compared to how it is handled in other countries. Or, for a more local example, versus how other potentially lethal props, such as explosives or wild animals, are handled. I think it's possible armorers might be perhaps marginally looser with guns than an explosives expert is with explosives, or a wild animal expert is with wild animals, specifically because of guns' ubiquity and our uniquely American cultural attitude towards them as being NBD. I'm not saying I firmly and incontrovertibly believe this to be the case—only that I think it's possible, and something I can't immediately dismiss out-of-hand as impossibly ridiculous simply because I myself certainly wouldn't treat it that way. In any event, it does seem to be increasingly clear that both the assistant director and the armorer on this particular movie treated the use of prop guns on the set with a certain degree of nonchalance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted October 27, 2021 Share Posted October 27, 2021 OK, so, maybe "nonchalance" isn't the operative word here after all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biff Mayhem Posted October 28, 2021 Share Posted October 28, 2021 With the caveat that I think Alec Baldwin is an incredibly funny man and a tremendous "pin piercing skin", the memes that mock him in this instance are tragic. I don't wish the vitriol pointed his direction anymore than I wish the death of a young woman because of someone else's negligence. While the death is the greater loss, people laughing at Baldwin need to check themselves. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfife Posted October 28, 2021 Share Posted October 28, 2021 I haven't been following the details of this, and frankly what the hell do I know about shooting a movie, but it does seem kinda strange to me that they had any real ammo on the set that would allow the possibility of this to happen. Maybe there is a necessity, IDK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted October 30, 2021 Share Posted October 30, 2021 We have two mature maples in the front yard separated by no more than 15-20 feet, pretty much due north/south of each other. The one in the south has it's leaves completely turn to orange pink and start falling off whilst the tree in the north is still a very solid green. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted October 30, 2021 Share Posted October 30, 2021 On 10/28/2021 at 7:47 AM, pfife said: I haven't been following the details of this, and frankly what the hell do I know about shooting a movie, but it does seem kinda strange to me that they had any real ammo on the set that would allow the possibility of this to happen. Maybe there is a necessity, IDK. I don't understand it at all either, especially in this day and age of computerized graphics. Its an inexcusable situation with no means to adequately make amends for the tragedy. Sure, there can be changes made going forward, but this shouldn't have happened in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyMarsh Posted October 30, 2021 Share Posted October 30, 2021 I know very little about guns but since the movie is based in the 1800s I'm guessing the weapon at hand is a revolver. If so how complicated is it to make sure there isn't a bullet in there? It's not like removing a clip and forgetting one was in the chamber, with a revolver don't you just have to look in the cylinders and that's it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted October 30, 2021 Share Posted October 30, 2021 10 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said: I know very little about guns but since the movie is based in the 1800s I'm guessing the weapon at hand is a revolver. If so how complicated is it to make sure there isn't a bullet in there? It's not like removing a clip and forgetting one was in the chamber, with a revolver don't you just have to look in the cylinders and that's it? but maybe there was supposed to a "bullet" in the cylinder. Supposedly it was to be a camera shot down the barrel. We've seen that shot before and you expect to see 'bullets' in the cylinder. Now on a set they should not be bullets that can be fired - that's exactly the question. The reality is they handle guns on sets every single day, thousands of times, and no-one gets hurt - so they know well enough how to do all this stuff right - they just didn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted October 31, 2021 Share Posted October 31, 2021 According to today's NYT story the gun was supposed have blanks in it and did. But somehow there was also a live round in it with the blanks. So maybe we have to allow for the other possibility to be an act of criminal sabotage. Maybe no-one associated with the film put the live round in the gun along with the blanks. It should still have been caught before someone got killed though.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted October 31, 2021 Share Posted October 31, 2021 It all goes back to the armorer and assistant AD who gave the him to Baldwin. The armorer is responsible. Baldwins fault is accepting the gun from someone other than the armorer I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Cat Gentleman Posted October 31, 2021 Share Posted October 31, 2021 13 hours ago, casimir said: We have two mature maples in the front yard separated by no more than 15-20 feet, pretty much due north/south of each other. The one in the south has it's leaves completely turn to orange pink and start falling off whilst the tree in the north is still a very solid green. hyperlocal microclimates Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted October 31, 2021 Share Posted October 31, 2021 9 minutes ago, Crazy Cat Gentleman said: hyperlocal microclimates Maybe one's roots have found the sewer line......💰 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted October 31, 2021 Share Posted October 31, 2021 9 hours ago, Crazy Cat Gentleman said: hyperlocal microclimates One is the shade of the other at times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biff Mayhem Posted November 5, 2021 Share Posted November 5, 2021 AirPods: like the Bluetooth earpiece that preceded it, are the douchebag merit badge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted November 5, 2021 Share Posted November 5, 2021 On 10/30/2021 at 8:40 AM, casimir said: We have two mature maples in the front yard separated by no more than 15-20 feet, pretty much due north/south of each other. The one in the south has it's leaves completely turn to orange pink and start falling off whilst the tree in the north is still a very solid green. Update: The north tree is turning colors. They mentioned on the news last night that peak color is about 2 weeks late this week due to the longer lasting warm weather. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted November 5, 2021 Share Posted November 5, 2021 11 hours ago, Biff Mayhem said: AirPods: like the Bluetooth earpiece that preceded it, are the douchebag merit badge The standard buds that come with phones never stay in my ears. I have found a pair with hooks that go over my ears that are connected to each other with a rubber/nylon wire/lanyard type thing. The wire annoys the back of my neck, so I place it under neck which surely makes me look a dork. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted November 5, 2021 Share Posted November 5, 2021 I've never been able to keep pods in my ears, so I go with Port-a-Pros. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shades of Deivi Cruz Posted November 5, 2021 Share Posted November 5, 2021 12 hours ago, Biff Mayhem said: AirPods: like the Bluetooth earpiece that preceded it, are the douchebag merit badge I use AirPods all the time, though just for music not for conversations. I don't have conversations on my phone. I'm not a caveman. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted November 5, 2021 Share Posted November 5, 2021 I have a friend who works for Harmon so I get my stuff from him. I have buds that are configured so that you can hear the music and words really well yet at the same time pick up any outside sounds. They don't look like air pods, sticking down your ear like that, just plugs. I also have a couple of wired sets that are bluetooth. The wires just connect the earpieces together. I actually prefer those as they are easier to keep track of. Like on an airplane I can just take them out and sort of tuck them in my shirt collar to stay in place. If I have them on and someone needs to talk I just take one out and let it hang there rather than take it out and then have to hold it.... My son has lost 3 pair of earpods. Because of the discount available to me they are really disposable. I can get an $100 set for $15. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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