Detroit Lions Offseason Thread 2023

[KL2]

On 6/7/2023 at 6:24 PM, Motown Bombers said:

I wonder if they can prove he was inside the hotel? What if he made the bet outside on the street using the hotel wifi? Is the entire hotel considered the team hotel? Even the lobby?

I don't know why you keep hammering this

Like any other workplaces there are rules. He broke em. Just like if I get plastered and take a crap on the floor of the hotel lobby in front of the entire conference, I'm getting in trouble too.

It was a rule, he broke it. Simple as that. 

If it was any other team you guys wouldn't be bending over backward to explain it. Yeah the entire hotel is off limits, no we don't section off parts, the entire property. Really simple.

[KL2]

On 6/9/2023 at 3:57 PM, djhutch said:

What on earth do the player's pay union dues for?  I can't believe they are not challenging this

Probably cause they agreed to it.

[gehringer_2]

27 minutes ago, KL2 said:

Probably cause they agreed to it.

I don't care about this case one way or the other, but aren't suspension lengths appealed in virtually all sports all the time? I guess I expect a perfunctory appeal on any suspension.

Edited June 11, 2023 by gehringer_2

[1984Echoes]

On 6/7/2023 at 6:24 PM, Motown Bombers said:

I wonder if they can prove he was inside the hotel? What if he made the bet outside on the street using the hotel wifi? Is the entire hotel considered the team hotel? Even the lobby?

GPS/ geolocation of the call.

Cellphones can be tracked.

[Sports_Freak]

17 hours ago, 1984Echoes said:

GPS/ geolocation of the call.

Cellphones can be tracked.

If he would have been using a VPN he would have been OK?

[KL2]

On 6/10/2023 at 10:02 PM, gehringer_2 said:

I don't care about this case one way or the other, but aren't suspension lengths appealed in virtually all sports all the time? I guess I expect a perfunctory appeal on any suspension.

I think they are mostly appealed because they are arbitrary. Like in baseball the suspension for beaning a guy is arbitrary, it is 3 games is it 5? Plus it allows the player to play. In this case the rule was written clearly and Williams violated the policy, he said he isn't appealing, my guess is because the union knows it won't go anywhere. Pick your battles kind of thing.

[RedRamage]

On 6/10/2023 at 8:47 PM, KL2 said:

I don't know why you keep hammering this

Because the rule may not have been communicated clearly to players. New evidence seems to imply that many (most?) NFL players were not aware of the rule. Given the complexity of the rule (You are allowed to gamble, but not in certain geographical locations and certain times, also some gambling is never allowed) and the severity of the punishment associated with the rule (1/3 of a season suspension for some activities, potential life time ban for other activities) I think it's fair to say that this rule should be explained in detail to players, not just listed in the rule book.

Now, for the record, the Lions I believe have said that they did communicate the rule to players. But if a significant portion of the NFL say they didn't know about and/or misunderstood the rule, then I think it's fair to question the communication.

[RedRamage]

19 hours ago, Sports_Freak said:

If he would have been using a VPN he would have been OK?

Not necessarily. It depends on how the location information was obtained. If the sportsbook's servers try to determine the location using the IP address of incoming communication, then a VPN would mask this. However, if the app was sending location data from the phone (either GPS or CellTower or Network Data) then it wouldn't matter if he was using a VPN or not.

[buddha]

1 hour ago, RedRamage said:

Because the rule may not have been communicated clearly to players. New evidence seems to imply that many (most?) NFL players were not aware of the rule. Given the complexity of the rule (You are allowed to gamble, but not in certain geographical locations and certain times, also some gambling is never allowed) and the severity of the punishment associated with the rule (1/3 of a season suspension for some activities, potential life time ban for other activities) I think it's fair to say that this rule should be explained in detail to players, not just listed in the rule book.

Now, for the record, the Lions I believe have said that they did communicate the rule to players. But if a significant portion of the NFL say they didn't know about and/or misunderstood the rule, then I think it's fair to question the communication.

i dont see why it matters to his suspension that some players said it wasnt explained clearly to them (a/k/a they werent paying attention when it was explained).  the rule is on the books and he broke it.

ignorance of the terms of the cba is no excuse, lol.

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, RedRamage said:

Not necessarily. It depends on how the location information was obtained. If the sportsbook's servers try to determine the location using the IP address of incoming communication, then a VPN would mask this. However, if the app was sending location data from the phone (either GPS or CellTower or Network Data) then it wouldn't matter if he was using a VPN or not.

Hear that Jamison? - Next time you get a hot tip,  turn off your phone's cellular service and location services,  use the hotel WiFI through a VPN. Got it?

Edited June 12, 2023 by gehringer_2

[RedRamage]

2 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

Hear that Jamison? - Next time you get a hot tip,  turn off your phone's cellular service and location services,  use the hotel WiFI through a VPN. Got it?

That still may not work. Again, it depends on what the app is doing. I'll add the disclaimer here that I don't know how this apps/sites are pulling the data, so I'm only talking about what might be going on, not what actually is.

A VPN is very good for preventing a remote site from pulling your location via IP address. For those who aren't nerdish (like me), here's a very simplistic example:

I send a letter to someone in California and the stamp is cancelled by the post office with information about which post office cancelled it. The person in California receives my letter and sees the cancel stamp and knows my letter came from Michigan even if I don't put my return address on it.

But I don't want that person to know I'm from Michigan, so I'll use a VPN. I'll take my letter and send it to a guy in Georgia, who takes my letter out of the envelope and sends it to the destination in California. Now the person in California thinks the letter came from Georgia.

What a VPN is NOT good at is preventing location data from being sent to the end destination. 

For example, let's say that instead of me writing the letter, I dictate it to someone else. That person happens to include a message: "Dictated by Alfred in Michigan" at the end of the letter. I still send my letter through that guy in Georgia, but once it reaches California and it's read... well, it's obvious where the letter originally came from.

So, the app might be appending location information (GPS, Cell Tower, Network IP) to any communication to the Sports Book. This could include information about the Network that the phone is connected to... and that information could include location data.

As a final note, I suspect that many of these betting apps REQUIRE location services to be turned on for regulatory reasons. I seem to remember hearing disclaimers on the various ads like: "Must be in Michigan to place a bet" or something like that.

[Jason_R]

The real question is how it came to light that these particular players broke the rules.

Does the NFL get live, real-time updates of every NFL player who makes a bet, and have a well-developed process for validating that these bets were really placed by NFL players and that they really broke NFL rules?

Or did they just happen to find out that some Detroit Lions players made some bets then did some digging and found out these bets broke NFL rules? Probably this latter case, but if so, who told the NFL that Lions players were betting?

Not that I'm cynical about the purity of intentions of people who work in sports gambling, but a lot of money was going on the Lions to win the NFC North, the NFC, and even the Super Bowl. Undoubtedly the odds changed as a result. Could I imagine someone at a sports book making wagers on inside information about something like this, betting the other side of it, then leaking the inside information? Yes, I could imagine it. 

[gehringer_2]

25 minutes ago, RedRamage said:

As a final note, I suspect that many of these betting apps REQUIRE location services to be turned on for regulatory reasons. I seem to remember hearing disclaimers on the various ads like: "Must be in Michigan to place a bet" or something like that.

This is probably most likely. Hard to imagine the states would accept a system using only the user's representation about where they are. Then again, when it comes to law interfacing with technology, I would never underestimate any legislature's total incompetence. 

Then again, he could have avoided the whole thing if he had just gone out for a walk. 🚶‍♂️

[Sports_Freak]

5 hours ago, RedRamage said:

Not necessarily. It depends on how the location information was obtained. If the sportsbook's servers try to determine the location using the IP address of incoming communication, then a VPN would mask this. However, if the app was sending location data from the phone (either GPS or CellTower or Network Data) then it wouldn't matter if he was using a VPN or not.

So having a VPN on my phone is useless? I thought it hid my location and device from prying eyes?

[RedRamage]

2 hours ago, Sports_Freak said:

So having a VPN on my phone is useless? I thought it hid my location and device from prying eyes?

Not to get too off topic, but... VPNs aren't nearly nearly as big a deal as they make them out to be on the commercials. There are definitely some advantages to VPNs, but not quite to the extent that they say. As I mentioned above my example was super simplistic to illustrate how the VPN would have behaved in the case of betting online.

Rather than try to explain it in my own words, just watch Tom Scott's video here. He does a very good job of explaining this: 

 

[RandyMarsh]

As somebody who uses those online gambling apps regularly they do require you to turn on your GPS and enable your location every time because it's not legal to gamble with those in all states so they have to know you are physically in a state where it is legal to do so before allowing you to play on them. 

Edited June 13, 2023 by RandyMarsh

[RandyMarsh]

Don't know if this means we will be in the throwbacks as well. Btw let's hope TB plays in this game like they did back in the day in those unis.

 

[Mr.TaterSalad]

Are they suspending Dan Campbell for that game and allowing Wayne Fontes to come in and coach? I'd hope so, because you can't have a throwback to the old NFC Central like this without the Big Buck coaching.

[buddha]

i hope they both wear throwbacks because their current uniforms suck.

[buddha]

the lions are the vegas favorites to trade for chase young?  hmmm....

[Mr.TaterSalad]

31 minutes ago, buddha said:

the lions are the vegas favorites to trade for chase young?  hmmm....

Which is exactly why he'll go to the Pittsburgh Steelers and have 25 sacks next season. He'd come here and blow out his ACL and be done for the year.

[RedRamage]

Si.com has this mock trade:

Quote

Mock Trade: Chase Young to DET for 2024 third-rounder, Julian Okwara

I would probably do that mostly because I'm not expecting anything great from Okwara so for me this is really a 3rd round pick for Young. Obviously the big question mark here is if Young can stay healthy and I'd want some medical professional opinions on him from that stand point. But if the doctor's see positive potential I'd be willing to give a 3rd for the potential upside from him.

[buddha]

49 minutes ago, RedRamage said:

Si.com has this mock trade:

I would probably do that mostly because I'm not expecting anything great from Okwara so for me this is really a 3rd round pick for Young. Obviously the big question mark here is if Young can stay healthy and I'd want some medical professional opinions on him from that stand point. But if the doctor's see positive potential I'd be willing to give a 3rd for the potential upside from him.

i would do that in a heartbeat.

[MichiganCardinal]

11 minutes ago, buddha said:

the lions are the vegas favorites to trade for chase young?  hmmm....

The Commies are in a weird spot. New ownership is coming in with zero loyalty to any of the current regime. Rivera (and probably Mayhew) are on the hot seat after three straight years of being the textbook definition of NFL purgatory (7-9, 7-10, and 8-8-1). Yet they seem determined towards going into the season with 5th round pick Slingin' Sammy Howell at QB and are routinely in the 20s of power rankings, stuck in a division with clearly better Eagles and Cowboys teams and the probably better Giants.

You would think they are not the types who would part with Young in a contract year. Obviously they are better this year with Young than with future draft picks, and you would think that anything they can do to squeak out wins and get another year they would do. Unless Rivera and Mayhew can convince Josh Harris the team needs to be blown up (probably true), that Snyder wouldn't let them (probably true), and that they are the right guys to do it (eh, maybe).

I wouldn't give more than a 3rd or 4th round pick and some depth though. I'm not even sure we would be able to pay him long-term with the contracts that will soon be owed to ASB and Sewell, followed by Hutch, Jamo, and Kerby.

[MichiganCardinal]