Motown Bombers Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 1 minute ago, buddha said: "the lions are in a market for a qb" was the title of the section of the quoted article. Right and nothing in that article actually says the Lions are in the market for a QB other than them meeting with Richardson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichiganCardinal Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 9 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: Ummm, that doesn't at all say the Lions are in the market for a QB. It's that writers opinion. Holmes himself has said this. He used GM-talk to do it, and left all avenues open, but the Lions are factually in the market for a QB and don't want to be "sliding into home plate" next season. It could be Andy Dalton, or even theoretically re-signing Nate Sudfeld, but they are in the market for a QB, with only Goff under contract. 7 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: You draft a QB 6th to replace Goff. I love how people just want to dance around the obvious and not say they don't think Goff is good enough. Nobody said Baltimore should draft a QB even with the Lamar Jackson contract situation. No one is saying Cincinnati should draft a QB instead of paying Burrow $50 million. You're not drafting a QB 6th to be a backup or for cap savings. It's because you don't think Goff is good enough. I think that Goff's future performance is the lynchpin in the overarching quarterback discussion. If you could guarantee me today that Goff's performance in the final ten games of 22-23 is what can be expected of him for the next five years, you would be very hard pressed to find anyone but the most outlandish 97.1 caller who would still clamor for the Lions to take a QB at 6 unless they are in love with someone who is there. There is a very distinct possibility that we see a return to the mean out of Jared Goff. Not to say he should be run out of town with torches and pitchforks for playing poorly with a broken thumb (@McVay), but just to say he may not routinely be a Pro Bowl caliber QB year-in and year-out. Personally, I think Goff is a good-not-great NFL quarterback, who can play for long stretches at a time where he is great (as in the end of 2022), but is also prone to having long stretches of mediocrity. Not to speak for you MB (and correct me if I am wrong), but I think you are a little more favorable about him than me. And then I think there are others still out there (though I can't think of anyone on this board) that thinks the end of 2022 was a total anomaly, and Goff is due for a Wentz-like plummet in productivity. Ultimately though, the ones to make that determination are the ones who know him best - Holmes & Co. They scouted, drafted, and developed him, and have seen him at his best and at his worst. In my mind, if they determine that it is going to be best to move on after his contract is up, I am going to believe it is with good reason (and hope the reason doesn't rear its ugly head in the season). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMRivdogs Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 I think Goff is a good system quarterback, when the system breaks down I feel there he has flaws. Fumbles, interceptions, whatever. I'm a bad amateur musician. But I look at the team this way. Goff is Kenny G or a good session player. Like Bill Bergman (You Belong in the City), Mark Rivera (Billy Joel's guy). They are very good but no Mark Turner or Kenny Garrett who are probably the best currently at improvisation. If the Lions think they can draft the next Mark Turner, I say go for it. And in today's NFL you're going to need a QB who is able to improvise on occasion. No knock. I'd just like being prepared in case of emergency. We just saw in the playoffs what happens if your QB goes down. SF had it happen in their most important game of the season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason_R Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 Everybody is seeing what they want to see in this Rorshach test. The "there might be a QB in that box" crowd reads the Athletic article and starts salivating about picking Richardson -- maybe even trading a boatload of picks (to Chicago?) for the privilege! -- because "there might be a QB in that box." The Goff is good enough crowd reads the Athletic article and agrees, yes, the team is in the market for a backup QB. They also rightly point out that you don't pick a backup QB in round 1. On that point, MB is right. If you pick a QB in the first round you are telling Goff his days are numbered. OK, fine, he's a big boy making big boy money and maybe he should just deal with it. But I wouldn't be surprised and I wouldn't blame him if he requested a trade immediately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 33 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: It didn't quote any sources or any insider information. It was all commentary. It just stated they met with Richardson. It provides no other information that the Lions are in the market for a QB. Sorry to rain on your reading skills. There are other sources of information that are available to the public. The article is not required to make a laundry list of all instances indicating the Lions interest in a QB this year. Your reading skills appear to be myopic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 13 minutes ago, CMRivdogs said: I think Goff is a good system quarterback, when the system breaks down I feel there he has flaws. Fumbles, interceptions, whatever... This. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichiganCardinal Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 3 minutes ago, Jason_R said: On that point, MB is right. If you pick a QB in the first round you are telling Goff his days are numbered. OK, fine, he's a big boy making big boy money and maybe he should just deal with it. But I wouldn't be surprised and I wouldn't blame him if he requested a trade immediately. I think he would cost himself a lot of money by doing this. Playing for the Lions in 2023 is his best chance of putting up Pro Bowl numbers and maximizing his next contract, whether in Detroit or elsewhere. If the Lions traded him to Carolina, where he is working with a first-time offensive coordinator and throwing to DJ Moore and...... *crickets*, would he be better off than with Ben Johnson and this offense that's been assembled around him? If he was traded to Indy, would he have a better season with Jim Bob Cooter and Michael Pittman? There's a difference between betting on yourself and making a rash decision... I do think the Lions (if actually exploring a QB) should be very transparent with Goff about such a possibility. If he said that he would demand a trade upon drafting one in the first round, I would take that into account. Not to say I wouldn't still consider it (if it was already on the table that is), but I might be more hesitant about Richardson or Hooker, for instance. I also don't think that's his personality at all. I could be wrong. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason_R Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 Again, I don’t see the Athletic reporting Holmes’s statement from a month or so ago that it is easier to get worse at the QB position than to get better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 (edited) the other thing about QB's is that as long as their health holds, many tend to continue to get more effective with experience - their panic factor falls, recognition experience goes up, the coaching staff's familiarity leads to a better fit between the ask and capability. There are reasons to think that when you see a mid career QB start creating better outcomes that it's a real effect. Edited March 7, 2023 by gehringer_2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRamage Posted March 7, 2023 Author Share Posted March 7, 2023 1 hour ago, buddha said: There has to be a nuanced way to talk about the quarterback position without it serving as a shot at Goff. I really hope we can do that here. Goff played at a Pro Bowl level in 2022 and deserves a ton of credit for how he rose above a bad situation. He’s certainly capable of leading this team to the playoffs if he repeats the season he just had. Let’s make that clear. Here's the thing for me... I think I'm on record as being unsure of Goff. He had a great 2022, no question. But How much was him and how much the system? I freely admit that I just don't know. I'm not in a position to be able to make a far evaluation on that. So... either A.) the Lions system is really good and plays to Goff's strengths, or B.) Goff is really good and makes the Lions system look great, or C.) somewhere in between. If the Lions think it's A, then in theory they don't need a superstar QB, just a good QB that they can scheme around. Drafting a QB early on a class that isn't highly thought of seems like a silly idea if they can plug and play with any decent QB. If the Lions think it's B, then drafting a QB early (1st or 2nd round) is "wasting" resources that could be used on players having and impact in 2023 or 2024 and potentially getting the Lions deep into the playoffs. If the Lions think it's C, then yeah... try to upgrade. But are any of this years guys an actual upgrade? The only way I see the Lions going after a QB is option D and E: Option D, the Lions think Goff really held the team back and was below a replacement level player. Not sure how anyone could look at the Lions last year and think this. Option E, there is a generational talent in the draft and the Lions would be stupid to pass on a guy who looks to be a sure fire franchise QB. I don't think any of the guys are this type player, and even if one or two of these were they'd be gone by pick 6. TL;DR: I'll be SHOCKED if the Lions take a QB in the 1st or 2nd round. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason_R Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 29 minutes ago, MichiganCardinal said: I think he would cost himself a lot of money by doing this. Playing for the Lions in 2023 is his best chance of putting up Pro Bowl numbers and maximizing his next contract, whether in Detroit or elsewhere. If the Lions traded him to Carolina, where he is working with a first-time offensive coordinator and throwing to DJ Moore and...... *crickets*, would he be better off than with Ben Johnson and this offense that's been assembled around him? If he was traded to Indy, would he have a better season with Jim Bob Cooter and Michael Pittman? There's a difference between betting on yourself and making a rash decision... I do think the Lions (if actually exploring a QB) should be very transparent with Goff about such a possibility. If he said that he would demand a trade upon drafting one in the first round, I would take that into account. Not to say I wouldn't still consider it (if it was already on the table that is), but I might be more hesitant about Richardson or Hooker, for instance. I also don't think that's his personality at all. I could be wrong. I am in the “Goff is good enough” camp, not the “there might be a QB in that box” camp. I believe the Lions front office is in the “Goff is good enough” camp, and all of their talk about QBs is a mix of due diligence, smoke screen, and exploration of alternatives for QB2. So I don’t think for a second that any of this will actually happen. The issue is the “there might be a QB in that box” crowd doesn’t account for the fact that they are calling for the replacement of real people with real contracts, real agents, doing real business. You want to replace a Pro Bowl QB? Fine, he has leverage too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason_R Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 Just now, RedRamage said: How much was him and how much the system? The metaphysics of QB evaluation. Closely related to the metaphysics of the catch, AKA “How long must the WR dance on the edge of the side line?” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.TaterSalad Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 (edited) Per NBC Sports . . . Edited March 7, 2023 by Mr.TaterSalad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason_R Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 Just now, Mr.TaterSalad said: Per NBC Sports . . . Couldn’t they make that text any bigger? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinzaki Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 With the the Richrdson box...the chance that the "there's so much crap there's gotta be a pony in there somewhere" adage won't hold true and that it will end up being just a box of crap is enough to keep me from wanting to draft him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.TaterSalad Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 2 hours ago, RandyMarsh said: The radio was saying per Rich Eisen that Brady didn't actually file for retirement and is still an official FA. He added that Miami seems to be the most probable explanation. After hearing that some folks suggested that it could be because the player actually retiring won't be Brady but Tua due to the multiple head injuries he has already suffered in his young career. That would be a major turn of events. I never believed he was retiring and won't until the season starts and he's not suited up, in a uniform somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 Goff in LA was just a system QB. Goes to Detroit and has success in a completely different system. Goff is still a system QB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 5 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: Goff in LA was just a system QB. Goes to Detroit and has success in a completely different system. Goff is still a system QB. They designed the Lions Offensive system to mirror the Rams as much as was possible. Ben Johnson specifically went to Goff to go over play designs that he was comfortable with. So... yeah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 2 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: They designed the Lions Offensive system to mirror the Rams as much as was possible. Ben Johnson specifically went to Goff to go over play designs that he was comfortable with. So... yeah. So you're saying the Lions have good coaches who tailor their offensive game plan around the skills of their QB? Do you think Lamar Jackson should run the same offense as Goff? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 Remember, Daniel Jones was the 6th pick when they still had Manning. New York spent that extra cap space on Kenny Golladay. You got to pay your QBs eventually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason_R Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 25 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: Ben Johnson specifically went to Goff to go over play designs that he was comfortable with. Who the hell does Goff think he is asking to run plays he is comfortable with? And what kind of stupid sonofabitch is Johnson to let him get away with it? Morans. /s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 Apparently there is a manual for Goff. You just do what the Rams did. When been Johnson leaves, the new guy just does what the Rams did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason_R Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 I won't be happy until my team finds a box with a QB in it who burns the playbook on day one of training camp. "Systems? I don't need your stinking systems." I want my team's QB to climb out of his box every Sunday, get down on one knee in every huddle, draw a brand new play in the dirt with his finger, then take the snap and start chucking it around the field. That's when I'll really know if he is more than just a system QB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 Why is Mahomes not a system QB? What has he done without Reid? What did Allen do before Daboll? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMRivdogs Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 25 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: Apparently there is a manual for Goff. You just do what the Rams did. When been Johnson leaves, the new guy just does what the Rams did. And if that doesn't work you unplug him and start over. Reboot time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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