2022 DETROIT TIGERS REGULAR SEASON THREAD

[SoCalTiger]

4 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

IDK, maybe a team can have too much history with a guy. If this turns out to be anything resembling real, it would be a cause of having seen all the flaws and not being able to see change. That would be a serious indictment of a lot of people in the system. No point trying to develop guys if your are blind to when it's working. But it's 100 PA. We'll see where he is at 200 before we start filing the tines on our pitchforks.....

Mine is already sharpened and dipped in arsenic to boot. 😎

[bobrob2004]

6 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

IDK, maybe a team can have too much history with a guy. If this turns out to be anything resembling real, it would be a cause of having seen all the flaws and not being able to see change. That would be a serious indictment of a lot of people in the system. No point trying to develop guys if your are blind to when it's working. But it's 100 PA. We'll see where he is at 200 before we start filing the tines on our pitchforks.....

There's kind of a trend here.  Eugenio Suarez and Willy Adames are both above average hitters.  Why are the Tigers giving up on their middle infield talent?  

[Jim Cowan]

Paredes is still only 23, and when the Tigers gave him extended playing time in the 2020 Covid year (yes they really did, 108 PA's in a 54 game season) and he did nothing with it, he was still only 21.  But I don't see that Tampa has done anything magical with him, he won that Mexican Pacific batting title all by himself.  He always had skills and his BB to K ratio was always impressive in the minors.  There was just some uncertainty about his defensive position.

So if he earns himself a good contract I am happy for him.

We have the rare daily double here according to some, Avila made a lousy trade to acquire him and then made a lousy trade to get rid of him.

[RandyMarsh]

My biggest concern with Paredes was always the power aspect and the fact that he was already filled into his body I just didn't think it would ever come regardless of what his age was.

If he was a big framed but skinny guy at 20 or 21 with no power you could project him filling out, getting stronger and thus hitting for power but Paredes didnt offer that projectibility so the fact he couldn't hit for power now just came across like it wasn't gonna be there.

I still believeThere has to be some change to his approach or swing plane for him to magically go from a hitter with no power to suddenly crushing the ball in under a year with no body change. You don't just magically get stronger from 22 to 23.

Like he may have had this untapped power the whole time but the Tigers preached plate discipline, taking pitches, putting the ball in play etc.which hindered his power ability but TB is telling him to just let it go and to jump on pitches at the expense of maybe making outs or swinging and missing. 

Edited June 27, 2022 by RandyMarsh

[chasfh]

10 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

Despite admittedly being streaky, Schoop came into this season with his last 1200 PA at >750 OPS, there was no reason to think he was going to crash like this. Looking through all his peripherals and maybe in hindsight you can argue his pull rate and ISO were down some last season, but could have also argued that was adjustment to COPA. He had had 4 out of 5 RC+>100 seasons. I don't think it's fair to criticize the Tiger FO for thinking Schoop would again be at least in the 1-1.5 WAR range.

But given that, should we have expected Paredes to have become better than that? Before this season, if you had asked in my totally fan based subjective judgment I'd have pegged Paredes as maybe as topping out as a 2 WAR player, partly because even if the good plate discipline started to come through, he had yet to prove much in the way of his defensive chops and he does look like he could easily "grow" out of his quickness, even if he hasn't yet. Whereas I do think Schoop is a plus 2B.  So sort of a wash between the two of them potential wise to me there, though of course you gain 6 yrs with Paredes.

OTOH - to me Candy's resume has been more up and down and he's missed more injury time. Even though Candy's best last year was a lot better than Schoop, to me there has always been more an aura of fragility around his performance. I don't think I would have banked on Candelario blocking anyone long term.

We have very different views of Paredes potential. I would have pegged his top end at All-Star level, 5+ WAR, in the right system. Even in our minors, he had more than 1,000 at bats of wRC+ over 130, and he was winning Mexican League batting championships in the winter.

Paredes spent years here showing us how good he could be. I never believed that even at his best, two years of Schoop was always going to be preferable to five years of Paredes, and I think that was the calculation, because I think the team believed that Candelario was going to long term it for us at third.

I see this as yet another example of this Tigers regime failing to convert a position player to his potential. It’s been clear for some time that any position player who succeeds here is going to have to do so despite the Tigers’ efforts.

[gehringer_2]

23 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I see this as yet another example of this Tigers regime failing to convert a position player to his potential. It’s been clear for some time that any position player who succeeds here is going to have to do so despite the Tigers’ efforts.

It certainly is hard to understand why they fall in love with some guys while short shrifting others. We gave Goodrum something like 1200AB. He averaged less than 1 WAR/season. Why? Willi Castro over 800, many in the IF, he's yet to break 650 OPS. OK, great, he now has a shortstop's arm in the OF, that's nice but not a luxury a team that can't hit can afford. These are the flip sides of the decisions that will have been responsible if Paredes ends up a bad miss.  How many games did they give a hopeless case like Stewart?

[mtutiger]

Quote

The Athletic’s Ken Rosenthal spelled it out in his excellent article on the state of the Tigers: Hinch does not have an opt-out in his contract, despite rumors that started with an April 2021 Twitter report from Lynn Henning of The Detroit News.

There’s been speculation in the Detroit media nonetheless. Hinch was asked about the opt-out this weekend in Arizona and declined to delve into specifics about his contract. That’s how things often go in this business. But sometimes journalism is less about asking the tough questions and more about getting the tough questions answered.

Rosenthal had it from general manager Al Avila — Hinch has no opt-out. Rosenthal also reported Hinch’s contract runs through 2025. Here’s further confirmation: Team sources this weekend again confirmed Hinch does not have an opt-out, and at this moment in time he intends to stay with the Tigers for years to come. It’s time to put this topic to rest.

https://theathletic.com/3384602/2022/06/27/riley-greene-tigers-mlb/

Time to stop talking about an opt-out.... Stavenhagen seems adament in his weekly podcast about it as well and called out Lynn Henning by name and called it completely false.

Edited June 27, 2022 by mtutiger

[mtutiger]

It's the baseball equivalent of a codependent relationship lol

[RandyMarsh]

We may not even have the worst medical staff in our division. 

[1984Echoes]

2 hours ago, chasfh said:

We have very different views of Paredes potential. I would have pegged his top end at All-Star level, 5+ WAR, in the right system. Even in our minors, he had more than 1,000 at bats of wRC+ over 130, and he was winning Mexican League batting championships in the winter.

Paredes spent years here showing us how good he could be. I never believed that even at his best, two years of Schoop was always going to be preferable to five years of Paredes, and I think that was the calculation, because I think the team believed that Candelario was going to long term it for us at third.

I see this as yet another example of this Tigers regime failing to convert a position player to his potential. It’s been clear for some time that any position player who succeeds here is going to have to do so despite the Tigers’ efforts.

This is where I have always been at.

[1984Echoes]

1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said:

It certainly is hard to understand why they fall in love with some guys while short shrifting others. We gave Goodrum something like 1200AB. He averaged less than 1 WAR/season. Why? Willi Castro over 800, many in the IF, he's yet to break 650 OPS. OK, great, he now has a shortstop's arm in the OF, that's nice but not a luxury a team that can't hit can afford. These are the flip sides of the decisions that will have been responsible if Paredes ends up a bad miss.  How many games did they give a hopeless case like Stewart?

Politics?

CYA?

Avila's "favorites"?

I don't think any of those are bad answers and I believe they're all a bit related too.

This is the one thing that could cause me to ask for Avila's head. Not building a potential winner and trading good players due to "politics".

[kdog]

The ability to assess the talent on your own roster is part of the general manager's job. If you waste playing time on guys you traded for, that's a problem.

[kdog]

Quote

Power is the next thing that should come. Greene’s OPS through a small sample is only .680, and he does not have an extra-base hit. Some of that comes with time, and it’s important Greene doesn’t alter his approach in search of power. That said, it’s a reminder Greene is still a rookie hitter with much to work on. His average exit velocity so far is only 81.2 mph as of Sunday and his average launch angle is 4.4 degrees, generating a groundball rate of 57.1 percent.

https://theathletic.com/3384602/2022/06/27/riley-greene-tigers-mlb/

[4hzglory]

I liked Paredes more than it appeared most did in prior years, but there were not many who thought a straight up trade of Meadows for Paredes was a poor deal.  We had a need for an OF, we got one with proven production who is still under control and it took Paredes to get him who was still an unknown and no one could have honestly predicted Schoop and Candy hitting as awful as they have so far.  I have zero issue with the trade itself.

Now why Paredes didn't get more of an opportunity in 2021 when guys like Goodrum and Harold did and Willi now?  That I don't understand.

[chasfh]

2 hours ago, RandyMarsh said:

We may not even have the worst medical staff in our division. 

I kind of wonder whether Perez wielded his 800-pound gorilla status to pressure the Royals into putting him in the lineup sooner than he should.

I am working through a grade one MCL sprain right now that should take three weeks to fully heal, and yesterday, less than a week in, my knee was feeling maybe 95% back to normal. It definitely takes discipline not to stress it just because you’re feeling good, and that might have been the case with Salvador Perez.

I have no inside knowledge of anything, just speculating.

[Hongbit]

3 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I kind of wonder whether Perez wielded his 800-pound gorilla status to pressure the Royals into putting him in the lineup sooner than he should.

I am working through a grade one MCL sprain right now that should take three weeks to fully heal, and yesterday, less than a week in, my knee was feeling maybe 95% back to normal. It definitely takes discipline not to stress it just because you’re feeling good, and that might have been the case with Salvador Perez.

I have no inside knowledge of anything, just speculating.

I would bet everything that I had that it was Sal doing the pushing rather than the Royals FO and med staff.  
 

Sucks since I drafted him both my fantasy leagues.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Hongbit

[chasfh]

1 hour ago, 1984Echoes said:

Politics?

CYA?

Avila's "favorites"?

I don't think any of those are bad answers and I believe they're all a bit related too.

This is the one thing that could cause me to ask for Avila's head. Not building a potential winner and trading good players due to "politics".

The Tigers strike me as an organization that really values that amorphous concept called “culture fit”, which if you think about it really boils down to “our way or the highway”. It would not surprise me to learn that the butting of heads between players and coaching or management has led to departures related less to performance or potential than to culture fit. 

[1984Echoes]

1 hour ago, kdog said:

The ability to assess the talent on your own roster is part of the general manager's job. If you waste playing time on guys you traded for, that's a problem.

I've been very eager to move on from guys like Schoop, Grossman, even Miggy...

Out with the old and in with the new.

But if Paredes is not even going to get a real chance... and that includes pushing him behind guys like Goodrum & Willi... that burns me. 

[1984Echoes]

20 minutes ago, chasfh said:

The Tigers strike me as an organization that really values that amorphous concept called “culture fit”, which if you think about it really boils down to “our way or the highway”. It would not surprise me to learn that the butting of heads between players and coaching or management has led to departures related less to performance or potential than to culture fit. 

I could see that.

It sucks sometimes though... when a team gets burned talent wise because they couldn't adapt to a player or get a player to adapt to the coaching staff. If it's just some pig-headedness... well... I resemble that.

[Jim Cowan]

2 hours ago, 1984Echoes said:

I could see that.

It sucks sometimes though... when a team gets burned talent wise because they couldn't adapt to a player or get a player to adapt to the coaching staff. If it's just some pig-headedness... well... I resemble that.

Is there any evidence...at all, even one scrap...to suggest that Paredes' departure had anything...anything at all...to do with "cultural fit"?

[4hzglory]

7 minutes ago, Jim Cowan said:

Is there any evidence...at all, even one scrap...to suggest that Paredes' departure had anything...anything at all...to do with "cultural fit"?

I do not believe so.  I think they needed an OF and were able to get one with multiple years of control and a solid track record if they gave up Paredes and most people on this board and outside of it were amazed Paredes was all it took.  They had Schoop and Candelario projected to be at least around league average offensively and controlled this year and next.  It seemed like a no-brainer and I would have made the trade 100 times out of 100.  (And I always liked Paredes potential)

Edited June 27, 2022 by 4hzglory

[Jim Cowan]

1 minute ago, 4hzglory said:

 most people on this board and outside of it were amazed Paredes was all it took.  

Exactly right.

[gehringer_2]

3 hours ago, 4hzglory said:

Now why Paredes didn't get more of an opportunity in 2021 when guys like Goodrum and Harold did and Willi now?  That I don't understand.

right. The trade was fine based on the information 'in the public domain' so to speak. The issue is exactly whether the Tigers had a player under their nose they never gave a chance to show his value.

Edited June 27, 2022 by gehringer_2

[bobrob2004]

31 minutes ago, 4hzglory said:

I do not believe so.  I think they needed an OF and were able to get one with multiple years of control and a solid track record if they gave up Paredes and most people on this board and outside of it were amazed Paredes was all it took.  They had Schoop and Candelario projected to be at least around league average offensively and controlled this year and next.  It seemed like a no-brainer and I would have made the trade 100 times out of 100.  (And I always liked Paredes potential)

If Meadows were healthy and hitting like he did last year, most people would still be ok with the deal, even with the way Paredes is hitting.  The fact that Meadows and Paredes went in opposite directions make the deal look much worse than it actually is and doesn't help Avila's reputation of making terrible trades. 

[Jim Cowan]

For those who don't remember what they said about the trade at the time, the comments start on page 142 in the Hot Stove League thread.  Spoiler alert:  you liked it.