2023 NFL Draft Thread

[Motown Bombers]

Just now, buddha said:

people think goff and stafford are similar because the people on this board pay attention to the lions and goff and stafford are lions qbs.

stafford is a guy with a million dollar gun for an arm.  goff doesnt have that and is much more of a game manager type.  they are not really similar qbs.

and as we all know, the rams got rid of goff because he couldnt go downfield like stafford, or the rams felt he didnt go downfield like stafford.

I don't think they are similar, I think their career path is similar. The Lions could have easily given up on Stafford at the same point the Rams gave up on Goff.

[Motown Bombers]

It's also probably not a good thing that you didn't realize Goff can't run your offense and/or go deep until after you gave him a massive contract.

[buddha]

1 minute ago, Motown Bombers said:

It's also probably not a good thing that you didn't realize Goff can't run your offense and/or go deep until after you gave him a massive contract.

they also won the super bowl after getting rid of him for a qb who did those things better.

i dont follow the rams enough to know what their offense looked like when goff was in years 2 and 3, and if it was appreciably different in years 4 and 5 when his production changed.  i only know what was in the media following the trade.

[Jason_R]

8 hours ago, buddha said:

i see a steady decline since 2018 until this year.  look at his qbr.  the fancy stats show he dropped off significantly since 2018.

part of this is perception.  there will be numbers out there that dont show a "steady" decline or a significant decline, but i think there are enough indications that he was playing poorly in LA and here last year to convince me he did decline significantly and steadily.

Yeah, his numbers deteriorated… along with Gurley’s knee and Cooks’s concussions. 

We all saw him play his way out of LA. It wasn’t all his fault but clearly he was a reclamation project when he got here. He will never have the arm talent of Stafford or the physicality of Allen or the speed of Jackson or the creativity of Mahomes. Yes Goff has proven he can look lost behind a porous line with no weapons (like Brady and Rodgers), but he’s also proven he is good enough with the right pieces around him to put up top ten QB numbers. There aren’t a lot of guys you can say that about. 

If I thought there was a can’t miss, generational talent this draft like Trevor Lawrence was said to be, I’d want the Lions to take him. I prefer to go into next year with Goff and a top five DL pick as opposed to the same mediocre defense and a lottery ticket under center. 

[gehringer_2]

4 hours ago, buddha said:

they also won the super bowl after getting rid of him for a qb who did those things better.

i dont follow the rams enough to know what their offense looked like when goff was in years 2 and 3, and if it was appreciably different in years 4 and 5 when his production changed.  i only know what was in the media following the trade.

A football program always exists somewhere on a contiuum between two theoretical poles: one where teams draft and trade for the best general overall talent they can find and then design around the strengths of the players they have; and at the other extreme coaches who have a particular system they want to play who draft and trade for the players they think fit that system. It can be harder to get the talent you want in the second case, but *if* your system is good enough  -esp if it's new and the rest of the league hasn't figured it out, it can certainly work. McVay got his QB and he did win. I suppose you could say Bill Walsh had particular system and it certainly won. Of course Patricia drafted to some kind of defensive theory and it was an abysmal failure, so it can go either way!

But it would seem a natural corollary that there will be guys who end up leaving one place to have more success in another.

Of course the flip side of coin is that if Goff does continue to be successful this year and through next, the Lions may not want to pay what will be needed to keep him!  

Edited December 15, 2022 by gehringer_2

[RandyMarsh]

Not that this means much I just thought it was interesting that this tidbit was posted today considering we were talking about the similarities in terms of career trajectories between Goff and Stafford. Marino was fastest and Stafford was 2nd doing it 94 games. 

[NYLion]

15 hours ago, buddha said:

people think goff and stafford are similar because the people on this board pay attention to the lions and goff and stafford are lions qbs.

stafford is a guy with a million dollar gun for an arm.  goff doesnt have that and is much more of a game manager type.  they are not really similar qbs.

and as we all know, the rams got rid of goff because he couldnt go downfield like stafford, or the rams felt he didnt go downfield like stafford.

We're talking about career trajectory, not the style of QB. I thought that was made clear, no?

[RedRamage]

18 minutes ago, NYLion said:

We're talking about career trajectory, not the style of QB. I thought that was made clear, no?

Yes and no... I mean there were definitely some little "extras" thrown in like "Well, if you're unsatisfied with Goff because of his trajectory then you should have also been unhappy about Stafford because his is similar."

[RedRamage]

9 hours ago, RandyMarsh said:

Not that this means much I just thought it was interesting that this tidbit was posted today considering we were talking about the similarities in terms of career trajectories between Goff and Stafford. Marino was fastest and Stafford was 2nd doing it 94 games. 

Given the way the league has moved I'm a little surprised that Marino is still number 1.  It's such a passing league right now.

[Motown Bombers]

4 minutes ago, RedRamage said:

Yes and no... I mean there were definitely some little "extras" thrown in like "Well, if you're unsatisfied with Goff because of his trajectory then you should have also been unhappy about Stafford because his is similar."

I mean, no one actually said that. It has been pointed out that there likely would have been people at this point in Stafford's career circa 2015 who would have been willing to give up on him for the opportunity to draft Goff or Wentz. 

[RedRamage]

6 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

I mean, no one actually said that. 

...says the person who said Stafford and Goff were the same. 😁

[NYLion]

23 minutes ago, RedRamage said:

Yes and no... I mean there were definitely some little "extras" thrown in like "Well, if you're unsatisfied with Goff because of his trajectory then you should have also been unhappy about Stafford because his is similar."

My general point is that they've had a similar career path so I just find it interesting that a lot of those who stuck by Stafford through thick and thin aren't doing the same with Goff. 

FTR, I agree with you that there are reasons to not be completely sold on Goff as THE guy going forward. I'm just saying that isn't far fetched to compare the careers of Stafford and Goff at this point in their development.

[Tenacious D]

Who cares about any comparison between Stafford and Goff?  The question is should the Lions burn a 1st rounder at a position that doesn’t appear to be in need of an upgrade (vs using if to improve our defense).

Also, if anyone saw the game between OSU and Harbaugh’s babies, you would not use a top-10 pick on Stroud.

I’m happy to ride 2023 with our current offense and use our 1st and 2nd rounders to upgrade the D.  

[RedRamage]

1 minute ago, NYLion said:

My general point is that they've had a similar career path so I just find it interesting that a lot of those who stuck by Stafford through thick and thin aren't doing the same with Goff. 

FTR, I agree with you that there are reasons to not be completely sold on Goff as THE guy going forward. I'm just saying that isn't far fetched to compare the careers of Stafford and Goff at this point in their development.

Well, just for the fun of it, I'll beat the dead horse again.

Part of this is explained by seeing Stafford week after week and knowing that he has very good abilities and talent.  Part of it is being intimately familiar with the Lions and the coaching staff and know how inept they were.  Flip this with seeing a previous SB leading QB start to struggle.  See that QBs coaching staff and front office trying to replace him. It's easier to "give up" on a guy that you don't know all the details on.

Part of this is seeing Goff struggle at times last year, knowing that we had a sucky team, but not seeing him necessarily bring up the level of team play.  Part of this is seeing that we have now a great OL and some really good receivers and wondering if Goff's resurgence is Goff or just that great talent around him would let "any" QB win.  Part of this is seeing home/road splits that are a little scary.

All of this is just generalized feelings and I very much admit that there are details surrounding everything situation I discussed above.  But putting this all together makes me feel: "I'm not 100% sold on Goff, yet." I'm also not calling for a us to draft a QB in the first round next year to replace Goff either... at least not yet.  The next 4 games will be important for me.

[Motown Bombers]

4 minutes ago, NYLion said:

My general point is that they've had a similar career path so I just find it interesting that a lot of those who stuck by Stafford through thick and thin aren't doing the same with Goff. 

FTR, I agree with you that there are reasons to not be completely sold on Goff as THE guy going forward. I'm just saying that isn't far fetched to compare the careers of Stafford and Goff at this point in their development.

I think like mentioned before it is an optics issue with the way he left the Rams. It was widely viewed as the Rams wanted him gone so bad they gave an extra 1st round pick just to get rid of him. I look at his 19 and 20 season and he wasn't horrible. He was average and the Rams won, made the playoffs and won a playoff game. I think there is a difference when another team discards a QB vs a QB your team has drafted and developed. The comparison also shows that at the time Stafford was down, Goff was the hot new QB that teams were trading multiple picks to get. It also shows the grass isn't always greener. 

[Tenacious D]

Any references to Goff’s 2021 season is foolish.  Banged up O-line and RB and no wide receivers, except for the Sun God.  
 

He gets a mulligan from me.

[NYLion]

21 minutes ago, RedRamage said:

Well, just for the fun of it, I'll beat the dead horse again.

Part of this is explained by seeing Stafford week after week and knowing that he has very good abilities and talent.  Part of it is being intimately familiar with the Lions and the coaching staff and know how inept they were.  Flip this with seeing a previous SB leading QB start to struggle.  See that QBs coaching staff and front office trying to replace him. It's easier to "give up" on a guy that you don't know all the details on.

Part of this is seeing Goff struggle at times last year, knowing that we had a sucky team, but not seeing him necessarily bring up the level of team play.  Part of this is seeing that we have now a great OL and some really good receivers and wondering if Goff's resurgence is Goff or just that great talent around him would let "any" QB win.  Part of this is seeing home/road splits that are a little scary.

All of this is just generalized feelings and I very much admit that there are details surrounding everything situation I discussed above.  But putting this all together makes me feel: "I'm not 100% sold on Goff, yet." I'm also not calling for a us to draft a QB in the first round next year to replace Goff either... at least not yet.  The next 4 games will be important for me.

I don't disagree with any of that. I'd also add the factor of Stafford being the homegrown product compared to Goff being "thrown aside" by his former team so it'll take more for Goff to be in the good graces of Lions fans. Also, Stafford has that dynamic to his game with the arm talent and propensity for late game heroics that endeared him to a good portion of the Lions fanbase so I get it.

I guess I'm just saying that if you look at their career results, in a vacuum, there's some striking similarities. Of course this doesn't take into account other factors like the ones you've touched on already but I'm just saying that Goff probably deserves a little more leeway because of a proven track record of success at a high level.

With all that said, I was one of the vocal Goff detractors last season but he's starting to win me over so I've almost done a complete 180 in becoming a vocal supporter of his. I also want this regime to work out really badly, moreso than ever in my Lions fandom, because they're all from coaches to players very easy guys to root for.

In Goff's case, I feel like he's become somewhat of an underdog story (which sounds weird because he's a former #1 overall, two time pro bowler, near SB champion) who has gotten an unfair shake from the media I feel so it makes it easier to root for him to overcome. It also doesn't hurt that his fiance is... well.... pretty easy on the eyes lets just say. 😉

[Motown Bombers]

[mtutiger]

12 hours ago, Jason_R said:

If I thought there was a can’t miss, generational talent this draft like Trevor Lawrence was said to be, I’d want the Lions to take him. I prefer to go into next year with Goff and a top five DL pick as opposed to the same mediocre defense and a lottery ticket under center. 

This is a fair take. As it stands right now, they need help on the defense more than they need to roll the dice on one of these QBs

[mtutiger]

23 minutes ago, NYLion said:

In Goff's case, I feel like he's become somewhat of an underdog story (which sounds weird because he's a former #1 overall, two time pro bowler, near SB champion) who has gotten an unfair shake from the media I feel so it makes it easier to root for him to overcome. It also doesn't hurt that his fiance is... well.... pretty easy on the eyes lets just say. 😉

This is all true, he's not the best QB in the NFL and certainly hasn't totally lived up to being the 1/1 pick, but he's still compares favorably to a lot of starters in the league at this time. Which is probably good enough for where they are at this point.

But even aside from all the other stuff mentioned in terms of on-field play, he should be commended for really putting in the work off the field and in the community. Now Walter Payton MOY candidate for the second year in a row.

Whether he makes sense as a long term fit is a fair question, but for a guy who came in from the outside as an outcast, you can sense that he clearly wants this to work over the long term and has gone above and beyond in terms of ingratiating himself in Detroit. That seems notable to me... not hard to envision another player in a similar situation viewing coming to the Lions as a career death sentence, akin to being sent to Siberia.

Edited December 15, 2022 by mtutiger

[Hongbit]

Lots of glossing over McVey and his role in the Rams success as well as Goff’s big numbers.  SMV took the league by storm with a new approach to offensive football.  His staff was a who’s who of top offensive coaches with Matt Lafleur, Zac Taylor,  Brandon Staley, Kevin O’Connell all head coaches now.   Goff was in a perfect situation surrounded by a seemingly never ending supply of offensive gurus.  In many ways, he had the keys to a Ferrari and he wasn’t able to take full advantage of it.   He wasn’t bad with the Rams but I do wonder how much more winning those Rams teams would’ve done with a different QB.  

[Motown Bombers]

And yet here Goff is in Detroit in control of the top 5 offense playing like a top 10 QB away from McVay's epic genius. Meanwhile, the Rams have one of the worst offenses in the NFL and Stafford was having the worst season of his career since the aforementioned regression he had with the Lions. 

[sagnam]

The Rams have everyone hurt and won the Super Bowl last year.

 

Goff looks great on good offensive teams.  What would Mahomes look like on a good offensive team?

 

Drafting a better QB should not be this controversial.  It’s the most important position on the field and to have an OK one is fine, but  having a great one is both rare and better.  If Holmes is the right man then he will only draft the right QB.  And if he finds the next Mahomes then sorry Jeff, you did a good job and had stretches with numbers comparable to Stafford, but even you can see we have to go with this great QB and make multiple Super Bowls now.

 

Let’s not be the Panthers or Jets (or Browns, 49ers, and Titans even) and not take Mahomes because we have a guy.  We might be the Bears and take the wrong one, but then that means Homes isn’t the guy and it doesn’t matter anyway.

Edited December 15, 2022 by sagnam

[mtutiger]

To the extent that anyone is glossing over McVey and his role, it feels like now is the first time since Goff arrived in Detroit where people actually *are* glossing over McVey and his role. In part because Goff has been playing at a pretty high level of late on a non-McVey coached team.

Of course, a lot of that is a mix higher level of talent and better coaching that the Lions have had during this part of the season. But nonetheless, it does suggest that it isnt just McVey who can unlock Goff's talent and abilities.

[Tigeraholic1]

1 hour ago, Tenacious D said:

Any references to Goff’s 2021 season is foolish.  Banged up O-line and RB and no wide receivers, except for the Sun God.  
 

He gets a mulligan from me.

Goff has done a better job at dumping the ball and not taking a sack lately.