LOCKOUT '22: When will we see baseball again?

[oblong]

A nice thread on the subject 

 

[SoCalTiger]

I think we all can agree that pay for minor league players should improve but then again thousands actually PAY for College degrees. It's the cost of chasing our dreams and nobody is forcing them/us to do it so let's not shed too many tears. Plus it's a great way to get laid. 

As for the MLB players and owners ? They are all pigs at the trough fighting for their share. I don't "feel" for either. We just have to wait and see if their greed and egos lead to missed games which is really stupid if it does as there is plenty to go around. 

My idea is a version from the late Charles O'finely owner of the great A's teams who said "make them all free agents". Then the players will be negotiating for more restrictions as big paydays dwindle with too much supply of talent each year. As for increasing the "minimum" salary from $570,000 please. Just eliminate all the "gimmick'" and restrictions on free agency. Embrace capitalism by eliminating the service time manipulation and make it only four years , dump the cap altogether , no more arbitration and no more qualifying offers while instituting penalties for tanking. Serious penalties. Tee it up for 5 years and go. 

 

[HeyAbbott]

On 12/3/2021 at 4:14 PM, oblong said:

A nice thread on the subject 

 

The conversation here has raised many good points.  I do think this will be a very long hiatus. July 1 looks like a good date for a settlement.

[SoCalTiger]

6 hours ago, HeyAbbott said:

The conversation here has raised many good points.  I do think this will be a very long hiatus. July 1 looks like a good date for a settlement.

Ok no more posing for you. Only good news please 🙂

[JackPine]

On 12/3/2021 at 1:24 PM, romad1 said:

The human trafficking that goes on with players from Cuba is also a huge problem 

What could mlb do about it? Isn't that a larger governmental issue? I suppose they ought to be lobbying powerful folks in the govt but beyond that...

[1776]

22 minutes ago, JackPine said:

What could mlb do about it? Isn't that a larger governmental issue? I suppose they ought to be lobbying powerful folks in the govt but beyond that...

Oh, Manfred and his minions are more than happy to play politics. Case in point, the 2021 All Star Game relocation. 

[romad1]

3 hours ago, JackPine said:

What could mlb do about it? Isn't that a larger governmental issue? I suppose they ought to be lobbying powerful folks in the govt but beyond that...

There are ways to regulate how players enter the talent pool as FAs.  The current system is helping a lot of mafia types.

[KL2]

On 12/3/2021 at 4:14 PM, oblong said:

A nice thread on the subject 

 

That article makes so many false statements, stupid comments and ignores all context on nearly all of its points. 

[oblong]

Oh yeah?  I’m sure you have all the answers.  

[KL2]

1 hour ago, oblong said:

Oh yeah?  I’m sure you have all the answers.  

Probably not. But, I also understand the major flaws in that article that lacks much critical thinking.

To start off it takes the entire point that the lowest guys on the totem pole should get paid more. No industry works like that. Entry level is always the lowest paid. And the union wants it that way. 

Then you have the issue with the "fan complaint" section, the lack of understanding of top heavy free agency, the lack of individual cap contract in baseball compared to other sports, the lack of context about why a team such as the Guardians has spent 0 dollars, the lack of understand that every sport is getting younger, an inability to understand why a team like pittsburgh doesn't spend on free agency while ignoring the fact they give out deals to homegrown talent -- much like TB but we're not gonna complain about their lack of massive FA deals. 

The CBA hasn't gone towards the owners favor anymore than it was years ago. The players still have a crap ton of leverage and perks. But, the author here has ignored all of the things above to whine basically about the pay gap that the UNION created. 

 

Edited December 6, 2021 by KL2

[oblong]

So you are using opinions to argue against facts?  
 It’s nice that you have beliefs on how things should be but you can’t really compare MLB to other enterprises as if relates to “entry level”. 
 

I don’t care who gets what at the end of the day as long as I get baseball. My costs won’t go up or down.  But if I don’t get baseball then I will look for ways to vent about it and seek out appropriate blame.  The owners are simply lazy and don’t recognize their role in the attraction of the game.  They didn’t build the business. Their efforts don’t make it a better product. They aren’t the guy in the pizza shop making dough and pies every day.  They cut a check to buy a property.   That’s all.  
 

 

[Longgone]

9 hours ago, oblong said:

So you are using opinions to argue against facts?  
 It’s nice that you have beliefs on how things should be but you can’t really compare MLB to other enterprises as if relates to “entry level”. 
But if I don’t get baseball then I will look for ways to vent about it and seek out appropriate blame.  The owners are simply lazy and don’t recognize their role in the attraction of the game.  They didn’t build the business. Their efforts don’t make it a better product. They aren’t the guy in the pizza shop making dough and pies every day.  They cut a check to buy a property.   That’s all.  

 

 

This is just as shallow, biased and lopsided an opinion as the one you are venting about.

[Archie]

9 hours ago, oblong said:

So you are using opinions to argue against facts?  
 It’s nice that you have beliefs on how things should be but you can’t really compare MLB to other enterprises as if relates to “entry level”. 
 

I don’t care who gets what at the end of the day as long as I get baseball. My costs won’t go up or down.  But if I don’t get baseball then I will look for ways to vent about it and seek out appropriate blame.  The owners are simply lazy and don’t recognize their role in the attraction of the game.  They didn’t build the business. Their efforts don’t make it a better product. They aren’t the guy in the pizza shop making dough and pies every day.  They cut a check to buy a property.   That’s all.  
 

 

If you pay to go to games your costs are likely to go up because of these negotiations.  Fans are the biggest losers because any increased costs will be passed on to us.

[Tiger337]

16 minutes ago, Archie said:

If you pay to go to games your costs are likely to go up because of these negotiations.  Fans are the biggest losers because any increased costs will be passed on to us.

They will go up regardless.  They will charge higher prices if they think fans will pay.  

[Archie]

8 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

They will go up regardless.  They will charge higher prices if they think fans will pay.  

It just pushes more people away.  I remember the neighborhood people would have season tickets for box seats at Tiger Stadium. When Comerica opened they couldn’t afford it anymore.  

[sabretooth]

10 hours ago, KL2 said:

Probably not. But, I also understand the major flaws in that article that lacks much critical thinking.

To start off it takes the entire point that the lowest guys on the totem pole should get paid more. No industry works like that. Entry level is always the lowest paid. And the union wants it that way. 

Then you have the issue with the "fan complaint" section, the lack of understanding of top heavy free agency, the lack of individual cap contract in baseball compared to other sports, the lack of context about why a team such as the Guardians has spent 0 dollars, the lack of understand that every sport is getting younger, an inability to understand why a team like pittsburgh doesn't spend on free agency while ignoring the fact they give out deals to homegrown talent -- much like TB but we're not gonna complain about their lack of massive FA deals. 

The CBA hasn't gone towards the owners favor anymore than it was years ago. The players still have a crap ton of leverage and perks. But, the author here has ignored all of the things above to whine basically about the pay gap that the UNION created. 

Yeah, as I understand/recall, the MLBPA pushed for the current top-heavy soft-cap approach, and the players preserved these aspects by agreeing to longer periods of latency for players before FA, which reinforced the pay gap.

I don't really care how they structure this stuff, but as you mentioned here, it's not like the players are a bunch of helpless/hapless kittens who have been beaten down by management.  The players' leadership created the current situation just as much as the owners did, it takes two to tango.

[oblong]

2 minutes ago, Archie said:

It just pushes more people away.  I remember the neighborhood people would have season tickets for box seats at Tiger Stadium. When Comerica opened they couldn’t afford it anymore.  

That had nothing to do with player salaries. Owners figure out what people are willing to pay and maximize that value. Over time they got smart and realized corporations and rich people will pay a lot more than they had been paying to be entertained.  Your neighbors would have been shut out even if players made $50,000 a year. 

[Biff Mayhem]

49 minutes ago, oblong said:

That had nothing to do with player salaries. Owners figure out what people are willing to pay and maximize that value. Over time they got smart and realized corporations and rich people will pay a lot more than they had been paying to be entertained.  Your neighbors would have been shut out even if players made $50,000 a year. 

Plus my understanding is that player's salaries are paid for by broadcasting contracts.

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, Biff Mayhem said:

Plus my understanding is that player's salaries are paid for by broadcasting contracts.

well, dollars are fungible. That's like saying the state lottery money 'all goes to schools.'  In the final analysis any organization has one pot of money.

Edited December 6, 2021 by gehringer_2

[RatkoVarda]

https://mlb.nbcsports.com/2019/03/22/there-is-little-correlation-between-player-salaries-and-ticket-prices/

Remember all those times teams cut ticket prices because payroll went down?

[sabretooth]

10 hours ago, oblong said:

So you are using opinions to argue against facts?  
 It’s nice that you have beliefs on how things should be but you can’t really compare MLB to other enterprises as if relates to “entry level”. 
 

I don’t care who gets what at the end of the day as long as I get baseball. My costs won’t go up or down.  But if I don’t get baseball then I will look for ways to vent about it and seek out appropriate blame.  The owners are simply lazy and don’t recognize their role in the attraction of the game.  They didn’t build the business. Their efforts don’t make it a better product. They aren’t the guy in the pizza shop making dough and pies every day.  They cut a check to buy a property.   That’s all.  

I agree with your basic premise that the players are the game of course, and further that the most successful organizations run with as little technical input from ownership as possible, that's why they hire GMs who hire the technicians and should really "run the show", after all.

But because the owners write the checks, and since there is a lot of flexibility in providing a large payroll, medium payroll, or how-low-can-you-go payroll, the owners matter a ton, and their attitude individually and in the aggregate is vitally critical in determining the competitiveness of the product on the field generally, and the deliberate exercise of harmful "workaround" strategies for teams seeking cost-controls, like uber-tanking over multiple seasons.

[sabretooth]

Ultimately the CBA determines how the talent in baseball is distributed on the field, which can dilute or enhance the talent on the field, particularly if the CBA leads to a lot of tanking (which affects the talent on the field in a ***huge*** way), or service date manipulation (which affects talent on the field in a marginal way).

The owners are a vital piece of the equation -- while sports teams are toys, the owners are always going to press their financial advantage where possible, including influencing as much of the public and sportswriters to adopt the owners' cruel preferences for the uber-management of financial risk, including the horrible practice of mega-tanking over multiple seasons. 

I don't get the sense that pro-tanking dopes have much sway, despite the amount of virtual ink spilled on the subject in sports media....but it sure bugs the hell out of me that any non-owner supports tanking, and I would very much like to see CBAs and practices that de-fangs mega-tanking....though I know we as fans really have little or no influence over any of this one way or another.

[Sports_Freak]

I really don’t think the season will be delayed. Both the players and owners know how quickly interest in the game will fade if the lockout delays the start of the season. 

[Longgone]

2 hours ago, sabretooth said:

Ultimately the CBA determines how the talent in baseball is distributed on the field, which can dilute or enhance the talent on the field, particularly if the CBA leads to a lot of tanking (which affects the talent on the field in a ***huge*** way), or service date manipulation (which affects talent on the field in a marginal way).

The owners are a vital piece of the equation -- while sports teams are toys, the owners are always going to press their financial advantage where possible, including influencing as much of the public and sportswriters to adopt the owners' cruel preferences for the uber-management of financial risk, including the horrible practice of mega-tanking over multiple seasons. 

I don't get the sense that pro-tanking dopes have much sway, despite the amount of virtual ink spilled on the subject in sports media....but it sure bugs the hell out of me that any non-owner supports tanking, and I would very much like to see CBAs and practices that de-fangs mega-tanking....though I know we as fans really have little or no influence over any of this one way or another.

I believe tanking, which is deliberately trying to lose, rarely, if ever, happens. I believe there are teams, who are not competitive at present, that trade present assets for future assets, and don't see the sense in wasting financial resources in this weakened state just to rise to mediocre, while they try to accumulate a young base to build around.

I can see where this bothers fans, however, whether you like it or not, whether it is successful or not, it is a legitimate strategy and it should be a teams prerogative how to build their club, and there should be no artificial incentives or penalties installed to manipulate teams into doing something other than what they feel is in their best long term interests, especially when the issue is more perception than reality. All teams want to win. How they do that should be up to each individual team.

When players speak of tanking, they simply mean they want teams to spend more money, which is understandable.

[Tenacious D]

I typically view Tanking as not trying to lose, but also not investing/committing to win.