2022 MLB Postseason Thread

[SoCalTiger]

I have always thought Chris I was actually too complacent, almost asleep at the wheel if you will, allowing Al too much control which Al took full advantage of by patronizing his boss to cover his tail. Saving money for Chris was part of that but in reality Al knew he was overmatched/tentative to make big decisions either by trade or free agency so he focused on Rule 5 and hoping other teams cast offs wold turn into Babe Ruth. Then covid came and provided Al more cover. It was only this year when Al's last foray into serious decisions via trade/free agency failed badly plus the flopping of high draft picks and public backlash did Chris have his "Emperor has no clothes" moment and woke the heck up to make change. I think that moment came as he sat in silence and red a** embarrassment on the field during Miggy's celebration knowing the mere mention of his name, in his house, would result in call for the Lynch mob.

So I think Chris will belly up to the bar if Scot Harris requests investment because now Chris has his name on it and I think he is finally engaged and awake. 

[gehringer_2]

9 minutes ago, SoCalTiger said:

I have always thought Chris I was actually too complacent, almost asleep at the wheel

I would guess it has more to do with the fact that he has a lot more to do than run the Tigers. Between Oympia/Caesars/Wings/Tigers he may simply be spread too thin to be a very activist owner - ergo he's going to give his GM a lot of rope right up to where he has no choice but to make a change. All you can hope is that a guy with that profile makes a good GM hire. 

[SoCalTiger]

12 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

I would guess it has more to do with the fact that he has a lot more to do than run the Tigers. Between Oympia/Caesars/Wings/Tigers he may simply be spread too thin to be a very activist owner - ergo he's going to give his GM a lot of rope right up to where he has no choice but to make a change. All you can hope is that a guy with that profile makes a good GM hire. 

Excellent point and probably when his Father passed the pressure to maintain the Empire was first priority. 

[Biff Mayhem]

14 hours ago, sabretooth said:

Huh, isn't that weird....strange, unexpected...I mean, what fool would have guessed such an improbable event, after a lost decade of Philly futility? 

<snip>

That. Just. Hurts.

[RatkoVarda]

Mike was a VERY bad Tigers owner for a long time. Until there was a competent person in place (DD) it really did not matter much what Mike did.

Perhaps the same will be true of Chris. He obviously waited way too long to replace Avila, who he inherited from his dad. Hard to see how Avila could have kept snowing him under, unless Chris was hearing what he wanted to hear. When asked to spend, he did last winter. (Maybe he told Avila "no" in earlier years.)

Really what I want from an owner is to stay out of the way until he is needed; patience but not too much; and a $180MM payroll.

[mtutiger]

23 minutes ago, RatkoVarda said:

Mike was a VERY bad Tigers owner for a long time. Until there was a competent person in place (DD) it really did not matter much what Mike did.

Yep... he was no better than Pizza Jr in the early years.

24 minutes ago, RatkoVarda said:

Hard to see how Avila could have kept snowing him under, unless Chris was hearing what he wanted to hear. When asked to spend, he did last winter. (Maybe he told Avila "no" in earlier years.)

Even here with Chris I, there's a historical parallel with Daddy, who was pretty well snowed under by John McHale and Randy Smith for the first eight years lol.

Best case scenario is that history repeats itself and Harris, while fundamentally different than DD in how he views building an org, manages to build the next winner 

[sabretooth]

25 minutes ago, RatkoVarda said:

Mike was a VERY bad Tigers owner for a long time. Until there was a competent person in place (DD) it really did not matter much what Mike did.

Perhaps the same will be true of Chris. He obviously waited way too long to replace Avila, who he inherited from his dad. Hard to see how Avila could have kept snowing him under, unless Chris was hearing what he wanted to hear. When asked to spend, he did last winter. (Maybe he told Avila "no" in earlier years.)

Really what I want from an owner is to stay out of the way until he is needed; patience but not too much; and a $180MM payroll.

First bolded part: absolutely 100% agreed. 

Middle part: I think Chris signed off on a long-term plan, saw profits every year, and didn't care enough to dig any deeper until the big crash this year.  I hope this is a sign of awakening, i.e., Mike I in 2002, and not WCFS rearranging the deck chairs every 10 years or so to no avail.

Second bolded part: this is the plan!  I don't want Jerry Jones of course, but every successful owner I've heard of is an engaged part of the accountability system.

[sabretooth]

3 hours ago, SoCalTiger said:

I have always thought Chris I was actually too complacent, almost asleep at the wheel if you will, allowing Al too much control which Al took full advantage of by patronizing his boss to cover his tail. Saving money for Chris was part of that but in reality Al knew he was overmatched/tentative to make big decisions either by trade or free agency so he focused on Rule 5 and hoping other teams cast offs wold turn into Babe Ruth. Then covid came and provided Al more cover. It was only this year when Al's last foray into serious decisions via trade/free agency failed badly plus the flopping of high draft picks and public backlash did Chris have his "Emperor has no clothes" moment and woke the heck up to make change. I think that moment came as he sat in silence and red a** embarrassment on the field during Miggy's celebration knowing the mere mention of his name, in his house, would result in call for the Lynch mob.

So I think Chris will belly up to the bar if Scot Harris requests investment because now Chris has his name on it and I think he is finally engaged and awake. 

This is a great post and I hope you're right.

[oblong]

I will defend Mike I a little bit early on.  He got a team that was ok in late 1992.  In 1993 they had a decent year. Were in first place as late as mid June. That group fell fast but he finally hired some seasoned baseball people from baseball families.  Not a bad strategy from a guy who wasn’t around the game very long. The problem wasn’t the bad years. It was the so so years like 1997 and 2000 that gave a misleading hint that maybe they were close. That’s where they get you. 

[gehringer_2]

Verlander with a shaky start, settles down, gives up 1 in 6, leaves the game and his mates hit him a couple of dingers to put him up 3-1

[casimir]

11 hours ago, oblong said:

I will defend Mike I a little bit early on.  He got a team that was ok in late 1992.  In 1993 they had a decent year. Were in first place as late as mid June. That group fell fast but he finally hired some seasoned baseball people from baseball families.  Not a bad strategy from a guy who wasn’t around the game very long. The problem wasn’t the bad years. It was the so so years like 1997 and 2000 that gave a misleading hint that maybe they were close. That’s where they get you. 

That's fair.  I think Mike I gets the benefit of what has he done for us lately when these discussions come up.  Also, the Tigers were competitive and went to a couple of World Series while he was owner.

Maybe both Mike & Chris are loyal to a fault?  Perhaps that explains the first half of Mike I's ownership until Randy Smith was fired and the Avila era under Chris I?  Both Smith and Avila ultimately failed, but they also had baseball lifer type resumes.

[mtutiger]

50 minutes ago, casimir said:

That's fair.  I think Mike I gets the benefit of what has he done for us lately when these discussions come up.  Also, the Tigers were competitive and went to a couple of World Series while he was owner.

He does get the benefit of the doubt of course, but at the end of the day, the only thing that really separates him from his offspring at this point is that he managed to hire the right person at one point during his tenure as owner. That's was really his only special talent - hiring the right guy. And of course he let that guy go as well - a decision that looks worse and worse with each passing year.

I don't have any special love for Pizza Jr, he certainly doesn't get a pass for letting history repeat itself, but it got tiring toward the end of the Avila reign hearing about how "unprecedented" the situation with Avila was when we literally lived through  something that was just as bad, if not worse, in the Randy Smith era. 

My hope is that Scott Harris can be the Dombrowski moment in the tenure of this ownership, but we shall see.

[sabretooth]

37 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

He does get the benefit of the doubt of course, but at the end of the day, the only thing that really separates him from his offspring at this point is that he managed to hire the right person at one point during his tenure as owner. That's was really his only special talent - hiring the right guy. And of course he let that guy go as well - a decision that looks worse and worse with each passing year.

Yeah

37 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

I don't have any special love for Pizza Jr, he certainly doesn't get a pass for letting history repeat itself, but it got tiring toward the end of the Avila reign hearing about how "unprecedented" the situation with Avila was when we literally lived through  something that was just as bad, if not worse, in the Randy Smith era. 

I guess I was starting my life on the west side of the state in the 1996-1998 time frame as a first time executive, then from 1998-2002 I got married and had little babies, and the woes of the Tigers just didn't register with me.  I also didn't have access to all of the data I do now to compare players and teams, and the only way to share opinions between fans was at the ballpark or listening to/calling into Sports Wrap on 760 with Steve and Dan. 

Now I play fantasy baseball and watch a lot with my kids, and so information and expectations are shared between us and online, and everything is elevated all of the time, so yeah it seems worse now. 

37 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

My hope is that Scott Harris can be the Dombrowski moment in the tenure of this ownership, but we shall see.

That's the hope!

[bobrob2004]

1 hour ago, mtutiger said:

He does get the benefit of the doubt of course, but at the end of the day, the only thing that really separates him from his offspring at this point is that he managed to hire the right person at one point during his tenure as owner. That's was really his only special talent - hiring the right guy. And of course he let that guy go as well - a decision that looks worse and worse with each passing year.

I don't have any special love for Pizza Jr, he certainly doesn't get a pass for letting history repeat itself, but it got tiring toward the end of the Avila reign hearing about how "unprecedented" the situation with Avila was when we literally lived through  something that was just as bad, if not worse, in the Randy Smith era. 

My hope is that Scott Harris can be the Dombrowski moment in the tenure of this ownership, but we shall see.

Mike also raised the payroll budget during the time that the Tigers were competitive.  All Chris has done is lowered it.  Maybe he'll start to raise it again.  We'll see.  

[Edman85]

6 minutes ago, bobrob2004 said:

Mike also raised the payroll budget during the time that the Tigers were competitive.  All Chris has done is lowered it.  Maybe he'll start to raise it again.  We'll see.  

Those days are gone. Those teams were bleeding money.

[bobrob2004]

39 minutes ago, Edman85 said:

Those days are gone. Those teams were bleeding money.

Oh sure, Mike was really hurting financially during those times.  I have no idea how he survived.  

[chasfh]

3 hours ago, mtutiger said:

He does get the benefit of the doubt of course, but at the end of the day, the only thing that really separates him from his offspring at this point is that he managed to hire one right person at one point during his tenure as owner. That's was really his only special talent - hiring that one right guy.

FTFY, because only one.

[Edman85]

1 hour ago, bobrob2004 said:

Oh sure, Mike was really hurting financially during those times.  I have no idea how he survived.  

That's beside the point. The commissioner gets to flex in ways we may not see publicly when teams are operating in the red.

[gehringer_2]

Yankee's lose both games in Houston but the 2nd game could easily have gone either way. I'd take the over on 5 games.

[RandyMarsh]

Watching JV shutdown the Yankees the other night brought back memories to his first playoff start 16 years ago at Yankee Stadium. Seeing him and Zumaya dominate the a Yankees at Yankee stadium to give the Tigers their first playoff win in almost 20 years is one of my favorite Detroit sports moments.

Just crazy to think he is still dominating them in the playoffs 16 years later, that kinda playoff longevity is almost unheard of. I can think of only Clemens in my lifetime that was a playoff ace over 16+ years. 

[casimir]

14 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

Watching JV shutdown the Yankees the other night brought back memories to his first playoff start 16 years ago at Yankee Stadium. Seeing him and Zumaya dominate the a Yankees at Yankee stadium to give the Tigers their first playoff win in almost 20 years is one of my favorite Detroit sports moments.

Just crazy to think he is still dominating them in the playoffs 16 years later, that kinda playoff longevity is almost unheard of. I can think of only Clemens in my lifetime that was a playoff ace over 16+ years. 

Verlander's postseason career is basically another full season of baseball for a starting pitcher.

[Edman85]

I wanted to follow up to yesterday... Here's the things in the CBA that the commissioner has the flexibility to do to teams that are in violation of the debt service rule. Basically, a team with outstanding debt has to bring in a percentage of that number, net, every year.  It is an attempt to avoid insolvent owners running a team into the ground Any team with outstanding debt that is operating in the red is definitely in violation.

(a) Require the Club to submit, for the Commissioner’s review and approval, a written plan for achieving compliance with the Debt Service Rule (the “Compliance Plan”). Each Compliance Plan shall identify the fiscal year during which the Club proposes to achieve compliance and the specific steps the Club intends to take to bring the Club into compliance with the Debt Service Rule;

(b) Require the Club to consult with the Commissioner prior to entering into any contract with a term of more than five (5) years (except that this Section 4(b) shall not apply to any Uniform Player’s Contract with a Major League Player);

(c) Prohibit the Club from incurring any additional Club Debt (as defined in this Rule) without the approval of the Commissioner;

(d) Require the Club to reduce some or all of its outstanding debt by raising additional equity on whatever terms the Commissioner deems appropriate;

(e) Prohibit the Club from making any capital expenditures without the approval of the Commissioner;

(f) Require the Club to perform or refrain from any other action that the Commissioner deems necessary in order to ensure that the Club brings its Total Club Debt into compliance with the Debt Service Rule;

(g) Retention by the Commissioner of all or any portion of the Club’s share of: (i) the Central Fund, and/or (ii) gate receipts from the Wild Card Game, Division Series, League Championship Series and World Series, so that such retained funds may be held in escrow and used as directed by the Commissioner to reduce the Club’s outstanding debt, subject to the Club’s existing obligations to players and subject to contractual obligations to third parties made by the Club in good faith before the Club had notice of the proposed adoption of the Debt Service Rule;

(h) Reservation by the Commissioner of the power to approve a Club’s general and administrative expenditures, including, without limitation, the power to approve and/or limit individual line items in a Club’s annual budget;

(i) Limit, or suspend, the Club’s ability to obtain additional financing under the Major League Baseball industry credit facility and/or any other line of credit or financing arrangement obtained on behalf of that Club or on behalf of all Clubs by the Office of the Commissioner;

(j) Suspend the benefit of the Major League Rules, such as selection rights available to the Club under Major League Rule 5, except that any suspension of the Club’s rights under Major League Rule 4 shall not affect the assignment of the selection rights that the Club would lose or gain in connection with a player signing as provided in any collectively bargained agreement then in effect between the Clubs and the Players Association;

(k) Deny the Club’s right to be represented at Major League meetings and/or deny representation on Major League Committees;

(l) Suspend individual executive or ownership personnel of the Club;

(m) Impose monetary sanctions against individual executive or ownership personnel of the Club;

(n) Any other measures or sanctions which the Commissioner has the power to impose on a Club or Club owner pursuant to the Major League Constitution;

(o) Any sanction which the Major League Clubs may impose upon another Club or Club owner under the Major League Constitution, if the imposition of such a sanction is duly authorized by the vote of the Major League Clubs in the manner required by the Major League Constitution; and/or

(p) Require ownership to guarantee the Club’s debt service for the next three years, without recourse to the Club. Subject to liquidity concerns that the Commissioner may have, mandatory debt reduction (see subparagraphs (c) and (d) above) shall be the preferred Remedial Measure

[sabretooth]

I hypothesize that an owner can obtain capital financing other than through the MLB financing facilities?

If that is the case I would further hypothesize that an owner who obtains capital financing *without* using the MLB financial facilities mentioned above, would *not* have to abide by all of the rules and restrictions indicated above?

In short, the hypothesis is that if you use the MLB financing facilities, you have to play by all of their rules, but you have the option to obtain your capital financing elsewhere and avoid all of the aforementioned rules and restrictions.

Is the above hypothesis correct?

[oblong]

I have nothing to back this up with but I would say no because the ultimate goal is to protect the overall brand of MLB of which a team is a franchise of. They can make the appropriate business deal for themselves, regarding financing, but MLB has rules and standards that have to be met. 

[chasfh]

I may have missed this earlier, but does the debt service sidebar have any implication for the Tigers?